Talk:Billy Joel

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[edit] Pronunciation

How does one pronounce his name? Billy 'Jole' (sounding like 'soul') or 'Jo-El' (almost similar to Superman's dad)? --Marc NL 19:32, 12 October 2005 (UTC)

It's pronounced "Jole".Raymondluxuryacht 09:43, 29 November 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Billy Joel never lived in Levittown

Solved: Billy lived in the city of Hicksville, in a Levittown project. [1] Locarno 14:46, 19 June 2006 (UTC)

I can confirm this. My backyard happens to face his old backyard, just over the sump. I'm on Lantern Rd. and he was on Meeting Lane. Levittown is three blocks south of his house. "Hicksville" just looks lousy in a rock-n-roll bio. He most definitely lived in Hicksville, not Levittown. -EJF 11/27/05

He lived in Hicksville, which is adjacent to Levittown. I knew him then, and I know exactly where he lived. I took lessons from the same piano teacher. The only thing "Levittown" about Billy is that he lived in a house of a type built by, and named after, a famous postwar builder named "Levitt." He attended Hicksville High School -- not Division Avenue High School, which he would have attended had he actually lived in Levittown. I think Billy just doesn't like the name "Hicksville," but his own lyrics squarely place him there, as "Little Gio" (who was unfortunately taken from us about a year ago), "Virginia," the people in the "Italian Restaurant," and others were real baby boomers whom I've known -- and they were all from Hicksville, not Levittown. Incidentally, a few years back, he was inducted into the Hicksville High School Hall of Fame, which is commemorated by a plaque in the lobby.

OK, perhaps you can tell us why all these references on the web to "Levittown" are wrong? Are you saying that Billy lies about this?

[2], the official Billy Joel site
[3]
[4]
[5]
[6]
[7]
many more, do a search

I think we need more evidence than an anonymous poster saying "I knew Billy and he never lived in Levittown," especially when the official site says otherwise. I'll be bold and change it to reflect both towns. --Locarno 14:25, 3 October 2005 (UTC)

Very interesting argument. "You're wrong because others say something else." Incidentally, you have no assurance that your unofficial sources are independent of the "official" source of this particular item of misinformation.

Just a note on this: Wikipedia official policy is to create articles based solely on what others say. "All articles on Wikipedia should be based on information collected from published primary and secondary sources." (see Wikipedia:No Original Research) Locarno 14:38, 19 June 2006 (UTC)

As for why Billy's press would say that he lived in Levittown (and yes I've heard him personally say it on TV, too), I can only conjecture, but my best guess is that his music is deemed to be "emblematic" of the postwar Baby Boom generation, as was "Levittown," whose name has long been used loosely and synonymously with cookie-cutter postwar residential construction. Perhaps the metaphorical fit was just too good for him not to foster.

I know the facts here of my own personal knowledge, and could testify to them in court. That's evidence. If you want your "publication" to be wrong, just don't bother fact checking.

On the other hand, if you want evidence (as distinguished from simply parroting what others tell you), you could locate the place he lived, and ask what town you're in. Or, you could check old copies of Newsday, the local newspaper. Perhaps most simply, you could call the administrative office of Hicksville High School. Any such technique would provide additional evidence. What you have now, however, is less than persuasive evidence -- in support of either proposition -- and an inaccurate article.

There is no dispute that Joel went to Hicksville H.S., nor that he at some point lived in Hicksville. But did he ever live in Levittown? It does seem likely that all the other sources above are basing their data on Billy Joel's official info. I guess it's pretty much your word against Joel's, and I acknowledge that Joel could be lying. Is it possible that Joel's parents did in fact move from the Bronx to Levittown, then shortly after moved again to Hicksville? There also may be an issue of Wikipedia:No Original Research here. By the way, why won't you sign your name? Perhaps you're not sure how--just insert four tildes (~) while editing. --Locarno 14:17, 5 October 2005 (UTC)

Interjection by a friend (female) of first poster: I lived in Hicksville & knew Billy pretty well...actually hung out at the Village Green with him & the rest of the "Lost Souls" (his band from HHS) He used to rehearse at Dave "The Pig's" house in the basement. He dated my girlfriend Charlotte & we used to take the train out to Kings Park to visit her together. Yep....he lived in Hicksville!

Further response from first poster in this thread: You take criticism well -- an unusual virtue (one that comes in handy on Wikipedia, no doubt). Part of the reason I haven't signed anything is I don't know the parameters of required anonymity. I'll try at the end of this post. Having read the ban on "original research," I can't help but think that it would still be possible to locate a deed to the house recorded in the name of Mr. Joel's mother. This would, apparently, not violate the rule against "developing" primary sources, nor would it be prohibitively expensive, as I am a lawyer. However, I really don't want to turn this into an "outing" of Billy, whom I liked and respect, and whose lyrics are perfectly hilarious when he wants them to be. What do you think? Is this worth chasing down? --lawman

Thank you, lawman. We all should know how to deflect even the beginning of a personal attack and change the focus back to the issue at hand. Also, I'm a baseball umpire, so I have a little practice with criticism. Locarno 14:29, 19 June 2006 (UTC)

Next response from lawman: Forget researching deeds: The online Encyclopedia Brittanica places Billy in Hicksville, in fact has him being born there. (Strange, as no hospitals where one might have been born leap to mind.) So does the "Newsday" site, where Billy even talks about the existence of a Hicksville potato farm out back of his family's house. The website of the Songwriters Hall of Fame has him growing up in Hicksville, also. Lots of other sites do, too. Game over. He's a Hick.

It seems to be both Levittown and Hicksville (one a town, one a city? Or perhaps some other parent-child relationship?)

Oh we're living here in Levittown
Or is it Hicksville all around?
The debate is a Wikiwar-ar-ar-ar, ar-ar-ar, ar ar ar--
Are we living here in Levittown?

Thanks. Locarno 14:38, 19 June 2006 (UTC)

Don't forget that Joel has said that the original town in his song Allentown was indeed Levittown. Oh were living here here in Levittown. He changed it because he thought he could tell a better story using Allentown PA.

I'd always heard that the street he lived on (Meeting Lane) was right on the border of Levittown and Hicksville. I have friends that live on Bobolink Lane which is about 4 blocks south of Meeting Lane and that is considered to be Levittown. The "Village Green" that he sings about is Levittown's North Village Green. Here is a nice little article I found on the subject. http://www.antonnews.com/hicksvilleillustratednews/1999/08/13/news/

That article clears it up nicely. Locarno 14:46, 19 June 2006 (UTC)

Joel's bio here link says he lived in the "Levittown section of Hicksville." Shigpit 21:04, 21 December 2005 (UTC)

The Levittown page says: "Billy Joel grew up in a section of Levittown that has since been annexed by the community of Hicksville, New York." -newkai | talk | contribs 16:38, 21 May 2006 (UTC)

The Anton news article above clears it up. Locarno 14:46, 19 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Christie

Can anyone confirm that Christie Brinkley was widowed and not divorced from Jean-François Allaux? Every reference I find shows that they were divorced in 1981. The "recently-widowed" line is a bit awkward. Is it even necessary to mention that she had been previously married? --Neilk

I'm the one who keeps changing it to "widowed". The information I got was from an interview with Joel many years ago. The information I can find on the Internet is very ambiguous. Some just state their years of marriage, some state that she divorced him, but I think they are just making assumptions. Joel stated that Allaux died—he was some sort of race car driver and died in a crash. If you can find definitive information that states otherwise—like a published biography on Brinkley—I'd agree to the change. Otherwise, I think it should stay. Unfortunately, the Internet is not always a reliable source of information. :-S

Next sign your posts. I added your signature to your post above, but you can do this with either 3 or 4 tildes (~~~ or ~~~~). The latter is preferred, since it also leaves a timestamp. Peace. :-) — Frecklefoot | Talk 13:53, Jun 22, 2005 (UTC)

I agree that it should be omitted unless there's a published biography on Brinkley with the facts straight, but in that case, shouldn't the "recently-widowed" mention be omitted as well? Do you have definitive information that Allaux died in a crash while they were married?

Thanks for the tip on signing, now is it more customary to double indent when replying to a reply, or should I have gone back one indention? :p Neil 16:16, 22 Jun 2005 (UTC)

As far as indentation goes, I usually keep indentations the same for the same poster, so that the indentations don't get too deep. But, it's up to you. :-) As for removing the "recently-widowed" statement, that's fine. But thanks for discussing it first. I probably would've reverted the change if I saw it without discussion. :-) — Frecklefoot | Talk 17:44, Jun 22, 2005 (UTC)

Sounds good. I'll go ahead and delete the reference to Allaux until there's a verified source. =) Neil 19:30, 22 Jun 2005 (UTC)

AFAIK, Christie was engaged to Allaux when he died. They were never married. I have never seen references to him as her first husband, as she has had two since Billy. Shigpit 00:31, 7 December 2005 (UTC)

I stand corrected. Christie was married to Allaux until 1981. See Christie Brinkley and her references. Shigpit 17:26, 11 December 2005 (UTC)

Christie was married to Jean-Francois Allaux for 9 years (divorced in 1981), then was going out with Olivier Chandon, the champagne heir, a racing car driver who was killed in a crash in 1983. Christie and Billy met on St Barts when Christie was dating Chandon. When Chandon was killed Billy rang Christie to console her, and that's how those two got together. 203.206.118.206 10:45, 30 January 2006 (UTC)

That's it. Thanks. I thought she was already unattached at the time she met Billy...but I'm not going to argue with your information here. _Pit^Shig | @ 01:23, 31 January 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Spam

I deleted the 3 or so pianomanfan.com links from the article. It is an ad heavy site and a couple of the links were placed blatantly out of context, clearly reaching out for free exposure. Perhaps some of you will email the owner of the site and remind him that he is a jackass. --DeanoNightRider 07:33, 7 Apr 2005 (UTC)

I just reverted the link to the official website to the proper billyjoel.com and not bjoel.com, which is a redirect to pianomanfan.com as well. Does he ever stop? Neil 15:57, 3 August 2005 (UTC)

Be on the look out for billyjoelfan.com it's a nother url that redirects to the above url

He's back and "better" than ever. Except now he's obnoxiously large. What a shock. Don Bod being obnoxious.

Accualy it's Dan Bod and yes he's sliming his way back here is there anyway his I.P. could be banned and/or have his links banned?

I meant Dan. Sorry. His blatant, and constant, spamming should definitely warrant some sort of disciplinary action.

Just an FYI he's also using the name Dan6971 to re-add and bump up his links

The spamming continues. Deleting outside links to promote your own (and, previously, changing URLs but not the description from JoelFan and BillyJoel.com to yours) is pathetic.

Perhaps a webmaster could delete the link to Billyjoelfan.com and lock the section from being updated I know thay did it for the Wal-Mart section

Dan6971 Once again removed the link to Joelfan.com after somebody removed his link could the webmaster of this site please do something to ban this pain in the ass spammer?!

Regarding the recent (June 24, 2006 & June 25, 2006) fan site edit wars, you are both in the wrong for several reasons...

Wikipedia is not a fan site listing
you are both in violation of the 3RR rule
the personal attacks in the edit summaries (on both parts) are against Wikipedia's NPA policies

Also, next time, please use 4 tildes (~~~~) to sign our talk page comments... unsigned personal attacks and gibberish are likely to be removed during cleanup... I recommend everyone involved in these edit wars read WP:T, WP:NOT, and WP:3RR... have fun, and happy editing... - Adolphus79 05:32, 25 June 2006 (UTC)

The webmaster has a history of spamming, whether it be within the article itself, or in modifying other links, including the official website, to revert back to his own. In addition, a majority of the page is devoted to the webmasters attempts to make money, which is clearly against what Wikipedia stands for. JoelFan has always remained in the External Links section, and is not a money-making venture. Based on past experiences, and his behavior in recent days, I feel Dan6971's "contributions" should be removed.Absos1285 07:36, 25 June 2006 (UTC)

Once protection is lifted I propose that we remove the fan sites. WP:EL suggests avoiding fan sites, and they have been contentious in many articles. The purpose of external links if to provide further information to readers and most fan sites have little beyond gossip and ads. The official websites and the databases are more than sufficient. Our purpose here is to write the best article possible, not to decide on which outside website is the best. -Will Beback 09:34, 25 June 2006 (UTC)

I agree, especially if they're going to cause this kind of trouble... just remove all fan sites... - Adolphus79 14:13, 25 June 2006 (UTC)

Here's another vote to remove fan sites entirely. Neil 05:46, 27 June 2006 (UTC)

(66.32.209.169 17:57, 25 June 2006 (UTC)) I hope that works all I know is that he does this with other Billy Joel releated sites as stated above and will continue doing it I'm not promoting one site or another but rather helping the artical by removing spam (as wikipedia rules states) For now on i'll let the webmaster and/or the moderators do what thay feel is right in regards to this issue

Sorry for the inconvenience to the moderators and viewers of this section for the stuff that took place last night

While removing all fansites for other artists may work, for Billy Joel, his official site is, at best, skimpy. It current states that his show in Manchester, UK is to take place at the Hartford Civic Center. For up-to-date info, a fansite is the best you're going to get.Absos1285 18:05, 25 June 2006 (UTC)

It's not our job to make sure that fans know where the next concert will be. Wikipedia is not a crystal ball. We're only concerned with what has already happened. -Will Beback 21:48, 25 June 2006 (UTC)

that sounds like an issue you, as a fan, need to bring up with the webmaster of that site... we, as an encyclopedia, don't care about his tour schedule... Wikipedia is not a fan site... we don't care about where he is playing, as Will Beback just stated, we only care about the past, what has already happened, and what can be verified... - Adolphus79 21:57, 25 June 2006 (UTC)

"Billy Joel Fan.com" & "Billy Joel Forum.com" ARE NOT SPAM SITES!!! They are both sites that are heavily related to Billy Joel. While there may be advertisements on both sites, "Billy Joel Forum.com" doesn't really have any advertisements. There is no reason why it shouldn't be able to be added. In fact, there are other sites listed under the links that also have advertisements. People keep removing these two sites and keep adding in JoelFan.com - both sites should be able to exist together on the site. I will replace them both now. If you disagree, explain how these two sites are any different from the other sites listed.

Having looked at both, I can see that Joelfan is much more user friendly, and more "honest," if that makes sense. You and any mention of your website should be banned from Wikipedia, especially when considering your past and current spamming of this and other websites.72.89.141.129 22:58, 4 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] New York State of Mind

Billy Joel talked about this in one of his interview: he wrote the song 'New York State Of Mind', and send the demo to Frank Sinatra in hope that Sinatra will sing this song. That never happened, so that song becomes one of Joel's own hits when he later successfully launch his own singing career. Jason Huang 12:34AM, Dec 04 2004

In the back of my mind, I seem to remember something about Frank Sinatra helping B.Joel's career. Anyone know for sure?

As far as I always understood, 'New York State Of Mind' was written originally for Ray Charles to sing, Billy Joel sent it to him, and Ray said it was great but it wasn't for him. So, Billy ended up recording it himself. This made the recording of 'Baby Grand' with Ray all the sweeter.

I.A.M. 01:13, 11 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Discography

I did a revamp of the discography to be by album rather than by song. I intend to do articles for all the albums that don't already have one, so the individual songs which were here before can go there. Brjaga 01:44, 17 Nov 2003 (UTC)

[edit] Engagement

I removed a line that followed mention of Joel's engagement; it read:

Consequently, Joel put the Red Head, named for former red-haired girlfriend Carolyn Beegan, up for sale at around US$1.5 million.

This made no sense to me: what is the "Red Head"? Why is it being up for sale related to Joel's engagement? Perhaps this is meaningful, but it needs to stay out until it makes sense. Jgm 22:32, 4 Feb 2004 (UTC)

I would confidently guess that (a) it's a boat, and (b) it's up for sale because having a boat named after an old flame is undiplomatic when one is about to be married. I agree that it could be more clearly worded, though. (And even if it is more clearly worded, I'm not sure it's worth mentioning.) —Paul A 04:28, 5 Feb 2004 (UTC)

[edit] Influences

I added Ludwig van Beethoven to the list of influences. Billy Joel himself states on the sessions on the fourth CD of the Complete Hits Collection how big of an influence Beethoven was. Also, the melody for the chorus of the song "This Life" is taken from the second movement of Beethoven's Piano Sonata No. 8. Mariusk 21:07, 3 Dec 2004 (UTC)

It's actually the song 'This Night'.

The song is actually My Life, if they're talking about the use of 'ode to joy' before he goes into My Life, on the DVD in the 'My Lives' box set, taken from the river of dreams tour in Germany.

No actually it's called This Night from an innoncent man album (1983)

The song "This Night", as stated above, contains the straight musical quote from Beethoven's Piano Sonata No.8 in C minor (Pathetique). Andrew w munro 11:50, 1 July 2006

[edit] "No Man's Land"

I edited out a sentence about "No Man's Land" demonstrating his rocky relationship with Christie Brinkley. All was well in his marriage during the time of the "River of Dreams" album, as evidenced by "All About Soul" and "Blonde Over Blue." Furthermore, "No Man's Land" has nothing to do with a relationship with a woman. G.H. 2/24/05

[edit] Accountant rip-off?

On A&E, I saw a "Biography" on Joel and it went into great detail on how he was ripped-off by his brother-in-law, who was his accountant for a while. He was also tricked out of all the royalties of most of his early albums by the shady producer who he linked up with. That's why, instead of being a billionaire, he has to keep touring to support himself. Shouldn't this stuff be mentioned in the article? — Frecklefoot | Talk 15:50, Feb 25, 2005 (UTC)

Mentioned ... He was ripped off, but it's not like he needs to scrounge for food. Shigpit 01:23, 7 December 2005 (UTC)

I'd hardly say he has to tour to survive, he's doing his first European tour in over 10 years. We all know the big money is in world tours, and so he probably just does the ocassionally American shows because he might actually enjoy playing them, and for a little bit of cash.

[edit] Correspondence address

Hey- I last wrote to Billy Joel about 11 years ago. I wanted to write to him again but, don't have a current "snail mail" fan club address. Anybody have a clue?

Try Maritime Music in the back of the albums, or Sony Music. It'll get there. Or, maybe Billy Joel, Southhampton NY. :) Shigpit 14:53, 7 December 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Billy From Oyster Bay

On the album notes for Songs in the Attic, Joel specifically says that he is not the Billy from Oyster Bay mentioned in The Ballad of Billy the Kid. This was another Billy, who still lived in Oyster Bay. I have altered the reference accordingly.

I think Joel was joking or being sneaky, because the "Billy the Kid" from Wheeling in The Ballad is also not the Billy the Kid from history. You will note that none of the lyrics [8] match the events of Billy the Kid's life. Artistic license in both cases? I've changed it to be ambiguous. --Locarno 13:59, 3 October 2005 (UTC)

: I don't agree with your hypothesis but I think ambiguity is the way to go on this one.

On the Today Show December 16, 2005, Joel claims that he was singing about a bartender in Oyster Bay, not himself. Is he still perhaps using artistic license. --24.118.159.17 22:29, 31 December 2005 (UTC)

Let's not also forget that Billy clears this up in the liner notes for Songs in the Attic as well.

Oyster Bay is a town, one of three or four in nassau. If you live in Nassau (which billy did) you live in the town of Hempstead, North Hempstead Oysterbay or Longbeach. So living and hicksville and levittown he was a resident of the township of Oyster Bay.

^Nassau is divided up into several large townships, the two in question being Town of Oyster Bay and Town of Hempstead. Billy Joel lived in north Levittown, which is T.O.H., but his neighborhood is now technically property of Hicksville NY, which is Town of Oyster Bay.

[edit] Couple Thoughts

Rather than having a stub for various songs, why not have them on their album page? On the album page, there could be a song info section describing the songs. This way it would eliminate a couple of stubs, and add more info to the album pages (which don't have much info beyond the track listing). I also realize the problem with You're Only Human, but that could go on the Greatest Hits page.

Also, should there be a page on the new box set coming out called "My Lives"? There is sufficient info for a future page, IMO. Hurricanehink 02:58, 22 October 2005 (UTC)

Now there's more stubs. Only We Didn't Start the Fire should be kept. The rest of the song stubs would add greatly to the album articles. --Hurricanehink (talk) 13:44, 30 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Lots of missing info

I'm going through this article and will eventually have it completed to the point that it should be. There's missing information about Billy going to Russia to perform, and lots of trivia that should be included by album. Feel free to start, I'll chime in when I'm at home and able to think. Shigpit 14:51, 7 December 2005 (UTC)

In the song My Life, Billy Joel sounds a lot like Bill Conrad, who was a bus driver from the Wilson School District, which is located on 2601 Grandview Blvd. in Sinking Spring, PA. He has that abrasive tone in his voice when he says, "This is my life..." Mr. Conrad went ballistic when the kids got under his skin, and his voice is very abrasive. Cedric J. Lessig 14 Dec 2005 8:48 pm

[edit] Excuse me, 216.136.126.197 from Milwaukee...

You seem to be determined to put irrelevant information into this article. I'm not sure how this makes you feel, but most of what you've added to this article (under multiple IP addresses) has either interrupted the flow of the article, beaten a dead horse (yes, Billy got divorced from his first wife, we get it), or just been plain wrong.

You have said that the whole Innocent Man album is Billy's therapy after his divorce. It is quite possible that there was some of that left in the well after the actual divorce, but pretty much the entire album was written after he fell in love with Christie Brinkley. Based on the upbeat nature of most of the album, and the fact the words have virtually nothing negative to say about her at all, I cannot understand how you believe this album is focusing on a previous relationship.

"This Night" in particular is about the beginning of a relationship -- there is nothing that can be said about being about what you're trying to spam the article with. Lyrics here

"Keeping The Faith" has nothing to do with a divorce either -- it's about nostalgia and "the good old days." The fact the video was filmed in a courtroom might be confusing you.

"An Innocent Man," if you need to personify all Billy Joel's songs to refer to a part of his own life, might possibly have something to do with his breakup. But I would like to see some attribution for how it's about being served with papers. I've followed the man's career since the late '70s and that's a story I have never heard.

I'm glad you're interested in contributing. Every contributor to Wikipedia is welcome. However, by posting under multiple IP addresses and continually hitting the same article to get your point across, you're acting like a vandal rather than a contributor. My suggestion, if you want to be taken seriously, is to register. Then you can have real, civil conversations with other Wikipedians rather than forcefeed articles with information that might be in error.

I trust you'll do the right thing. I'm rolling back your changes, but I hope you'll see this note and take it under advisement. Thanks. _Pit^Shig | @ 20:37, 7 January 2006 (UTC)

Yes. The song that I mentioned was "My Life," which is off the album 52nd Street. I think that song does have to do with the breakup. —Gm1121983 18:12 2 May 2006

[edit] Intro Paragraph

"Joel could be considered, with Elton John, the father of piano rock." What about either Little Richard or Jerry Lee Lewis who both predate both Joel and John? I removed this sentence for that reason. AriGold 16:53, 27 February 2006 (UTC)

Yep, you are 100% right.. — Mperry 18:22, 27 February 2006 (UTC)

Perhaps more commerical piano rock, although the two you mentioned were both big, I don't think either have achived sucess as big as Joel and John have found.

uh....that isn't the point. Being the "father of piano rock" means you either originated it or predated it. It has nothing to do with the degree of success achieved. wikipediatrix 22:32, 8 June 2006 (UTC)

Well then it would be true to say you can never pinpoint the fathers of any movements, as there may have been people who started it before, yet never made it big enough to have an influence.

[edit] Regarding his Comeback

I am concerned about this section, since there is no source, and the use of the words "there have been rumors" and many say" sound like weasel words to me. If this is a well known rumor in the music industry, how come no citations could be found by the person who wrote this? I can certainly understand how all of his fans (myself included) would love this to be true.

[edit] Criticisms

Under the criticisms heading there is a message declaring that it sounds like an advertisement. I've read through this and can understand how it may be mistaken for an advertisement, but the section doesn't try and sell albums or promote anything. It states the facts surrounding what Billy Joel has done. Does anyone have an alternate view to this?

Are you serious? This entire article reads like an advertisement or press release from start to finish, with goofy glowing non-neutral POV endorsements like:

"Joel's songwriting cannot be separated from the life that inspired so much of his work."

"Joel has always had a trusting, open attitude in both his business and personal relationships."

"As a result of his love of teaching and music, Joel has been passing on his hard-learned experience with the music industry and as an artist to a new generation."

"Some of the most entertaining segments of his program are when he explains the inception and development of his songs from the genesis of the initial idea."

Not to mention fannish statements that are strictly a matter of opinion, like:

"If there is a particularly unique quality about Billy Joel's music, it has been his eclectic songwriting."

"Joel has denied any influence of Elton John on his music, but there exists some similarity between the music at the beginning of each performer's career."

"A historic command performance was made before a wildly enthusiastic, multi-generational, hometown crowd. Standing ovations were provided for most of Joel's works, as well as for outstanding side performances by lead guitarist Tommy Byrnes"

The entire article sounds like something written by Joel's press agent, or a really excited fanzine editor. Totally inappropriate for Wikipedia. wikipediatrix 02:45, 8 June 2006 (UTC)

"Joel's songwriting cannot be separated from the life that inspired so much of his work."- Much of his work was indeed inspired by real life situations and relationships.
"Joel has always had a trusting, open attitude in both his business and personal relationships."- His "trusting attitude" cost him millions of dollars, and he never hid himself from the public. If nothing else, he opened himself up to the public through his Master Classes at colleges across the country.
"As a result of his love of teaching and music, Joel has been passing on his hard-learned experience with the music industry and as an artist to a new generation."- He always said he would have been a teacher if the music career had failed. And the sole purpose of 25 years of visiting colleges and fielding questions from the audience was to pass down what he had learned.
"Some of the most entertaining segments of his program are when he explains the inception and development of his songs from the genesis of the initial idea."- Opinion, yes, but he is one of the few artists out there who is willing to explain the history and inspiration of a song, both in interviews, and in concert.
"If there is a particularly unique quality about Billy Joel's music, it has been his eclectic songwriting."-The man hasn't released new material in 13 years (not to mention not touring solo in 6,) and yet still was able to have a sell-out concert tour over this past winter. That is clearly eclectic songwriting by any definition.
"Joel has denied any influence of Elton John on his music, but there exists some similarity between the music at the beginning of each performer's career."- Listen to Cold Spring Harbor and Piano Man, and then listen to Empty Sky and Elton John (the album), and tell me there are no similarities.
"A historic command performance was made before a wildly enthusiastic, multi-generational, hometown crowd. Standing ovations were provided for most of Joel's works, as well as for outstanding side performances by lead guitarist Tommy Byrnes"- I was there for all 12, and this is indeed a factual statement, though it is unfair to single out just Byrnes for his performance, because the entire band, by all accounts (biased and unbiased), was in top form. 69.123.53.186 08:15, 13 June 2006 (UTC)

You still don't get it. Opinions, judgments, and unsourced claims do not belong in Wikipedia articles. Whether the information is true or not, it cannot be worded in such gushing, flattering, congratulatory, fanboy terms. wikipediatrix 10:21, 13 June 2006 (UTC)

With all due respect, is it really neccessary for you (and so far only you) to make such a stink about an otherwise very well written, and well researched article? 69.123.53.186 07:24, 14 June 2006 (UTC)

Wikipediatrix is right. It would be good to remove non-NPOV terms and language. Think like a journalist or a historian, not like a promoter or a fan. I am less worried about unsourced claims, because 80% of wikipedia is unsourced. --Locarno 14:33, 14 June 2006 (UTC)

Great job butchering a fine article. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 69.123.53.186 (talk • contribs) .

[edit] Piano Man

The Piano Man page needs work. I have made major improvements, but it is only from a 10% job to maybe a 40% job. if some people could help I'd appreciate it. jj 19:53, 27 June 2006 (UTC)

-Are you talking about the Album or Song? User:Leethal

sorry--song jj 23:52, 29 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Billy Joel / Atheist

I was not able to scan nor to read over any article text that seemed to suggest nor to point out on that why Billy Joel might be an atheist. And I was somewhat interested on how it is he might have come to be an atheist and I wondered if there was a credible and a intelligble trustable source out there who could speak on why Billy Joel might be an atheist. Summerblynk@Yahoo.com, Cleveland, Ohio, 44109-4665 12:34AM, June 29 2006

Ever heard of a Google search? wikipediatrix 03:55, 30 June 2006 (UTC)

Shouldn't there be at least a statement and cite about his professed atheism on his wikipedia page before lumping him into the atheist category?--208.195.155.28 19:38, 3 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Today's edits

Just wanted to make a note about my edits - since there is a disputed tag.

I agree that this article needs some SERIOUS work and is NOT neutral. However, I really didn't want to get into revising this large of an article, at least not at this time.

I'm not a raving fan of Joel's....but as a Wiki editor, I thought it was very, very odd to have almost the first paragraph (after the intro) be "alcohol problems". Certainly as a musician, his work should be the focus of the article. I kept the text about his car accidents & alcohol issues, but moved it to near the end of the article to group with information about his personal life. NickBurns 18:03, 12 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Uncited negative material removed.

I have removed the following section per WP:BIO. I'm sure citations can be found, at which point the material can be reinserted.

[edit] Personal challenges

Joel has had several car accidents that were reported in the press. Joel has also experienced challenges with alcohol; he entered the Betty Ford Center in March 2005 for treatment of alcohol abuse after what his publicist called "a recent bout of severe gastrointestinal distress".

He checked out of the center in April 2005. Joel was treated previously for alcoholism in 2002 when he spent two weeks at Silver Hill Hospital in Connecticut. ^{[citation needed]}

Megapixie 07:49, 13 July 2006 (UTC)

I chanced onto this article while Googling some song lyrics, and it was very jarring to see "Alcohol Problems" at the head of the article; as mentioned previously, surely this is an article primarily about Joel as a musician. Despite comments of NickBurns above, it appears someone has once again put this at the top. I moved it down to the "Personal Life" section.MaterTerribilis 04:06, 18 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] The Nylon Curtain - part of paragraph doesn't make sense

Firstly, I apologise... I love Wikipedia, and Billy Joel, and saw the following sentence; had to read it several times before realising there might be the odd word or two missing, and maybe some punctuation could be changed to make it read more smoothly - not a criticism, I know how much hard work goes into all of this and I'm sure everything is a constant work-in-progress.

I don't even know if i'm going the right way about this, as this is rather a confusing site when it comes to editing/talking etc. Anyway, here's what i'm on about. (I've no idea about editing techniques, etc. so i've put changes in italics).

"Joel was riding alone the one day along the shore where there was lots of traffic, and where there very little on the roads, he would at a traffic light, and somebody will say "Hey Mr. Joel" or "Hey B.J.", on April 15, 1982 Cornelia Bynum had made a right hand at the intersection of New York Avenue and West 5th Street, and which she ran a red light, he managed to stop, and he hit the brakes, and plowed straight (collided) into Billy, who was going through a green on his Root Beer Brown 1340cc 1978 Harley Davidson FLH Electra Glide."

1. "Joel was riding alone the one day along the shore" - 'the' needs to be removed, to read alone one day; or - even better, "Joel was riding along the shore one day, where there was lots of traffic". Was there lots of traffic?... see point 2.

2. "and where there very little on the roads" : Very little what... traffic? can't be as previously says there was lots of traffic, so what was there very little of?

3. "he would at a traffic light" : should surely be 'he would stop at a traffic light'

4. "and somebody will say "Hey Mr. Joel"" : should surely be 'and somebody might shout' "Hey Mr. Joel"'. HOWEVER, who's to say on that specific night whether somebody did or didn't shout to him, so it's surely not really pertinent to this particular story is it, unless it did actually happen and caused a distraction?

5. ", on April 15" : this should surely be the start of a new sentence, as it all rambles into one - '. On April 15'

6. "West 5th Street, and which she ran a red light, he managed to stop, and he hit the brakes, and plowed straight (collided) into Billy, who was going through a green" : surely should read 'West 5th Street where she ran THE red light, hit the brakes and plowed straight into (collided) Billy, who was going through on green riding his Root Beer... '.

The 'he managed to stop' and 'he hit the brakes' refer to Cornelia Bynum, who is female, and so should read she. The 'he managed to stop' is incorrect as he (she) hit the brakes, and was therefore moving.

The 'the red light' and 'through on green' are more correct, as there is only one red and green light, and they refer to the intersection specifically, not intersections in general.

So, what i'm saying is that it would sound better, read better and make more sense as follows:

"Joel was riding along the shore one day, where there was lots or very little, depending on which is correct of traffic. He would stop at a traffic light and somebody might shout "Hey Mr. Joel" or "Hey B.J.". (is that a necessary sentence?) On April 15, 1982 Cornelia Bynum had made a right hand at the intersection of New York Avenue and West 5th Street, where she ran the red light, hit the brakes and plowed straight into (collided) Billy, who was going through on green riding his Root Beer Brown 1340cc 1978 Harley Davidson FLH Electra Glide."

I wouldn't have said anything if it were just grammatical, but I actually couldn't read and understand the sentence at all the first couple of times, due to words missing and it all being one long sentence as well. Plus the contradictory statements are baffling!

Hope I don't sound too critical and feel free to ignore me, berate me for rudeness, and chastise me for putting this in the wrong place (?) :) Trinity14 03:03, 28 August 2006 (UTC)

PS: I didn't edit, i wouldn't dream of being so bold, lol

[edit] William Joseph Martin Joel

That's his full name, as it appears on the United Artists album called "The Hassles," which was the first of two albums by that group. The second was called, as I recall, "Hour of the Wolf." —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 24.185.221.100 (talk • contribs) .

http://www.nndb.com/people/683/000022617/ appears to support it. Megapixie 05:57, 7 September 2006 (UTC)

While it may have been stated on 'The Hassles' LP the reason why Billy was known (or at east billed as Billy Joe) was because at the time pepole kept forgetting that there was an 'l' at the end of his name.

So insted of having to correct the masses he just went with Billy Joe Joel (all though that is NOT his real full name)

[edit] fake photo?

12.216.229.177 06:13, 15 September 2006 (UTC)

Look... maybe I'm waaaayyyy off base here, but, wow, the picture of Joel getting his honorary doctorate looks incredibly Photoshopped to me. Is it just me, or does somebody need to take a hard, close look at that and see if we can come up with a better photo? 12.216.229.177 (talk • contribs)

I've had a look - and while I agree it's a bad photograph (exposure time of 1/30th of a second makes it blurry). It doesn't look fake to my eye. Could you be more specific about what appears to be fake in the image. Megapixie 06:20, 15 September 2006 (UTC)

It looks fakeish, yes, but that is most definitely a real photo from the 2006 SU commencement.129.3.140.65 04:53, 19 September 2006 (UTC)

It's not the greatest photo, agreed, but I took this photo! I was there! See [9] and [10] if you don't believe me! -newkai t-c 12:09, 19 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] agnostic jewish?

i have to remove the reference to his mother's family being an "agnostic jewish" family. you are not jewish if you dont believe in god. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Keltik31 (talk • contribs) .

That's a misunderstanding of the term. I could see removal if it isn't properly cited, but your reasoning is wrong. *Sparkhead 17:56, 26 October 2006 (UTC)

I've restored it; Keltik31 has a record of anti-Semitic edits and discussion posts. His/her lack of understanding about the variety of beliefs that can be held not-withstanding, I think they just wanted the word "Jewish" removed from the article. Weirdoactor 18:58, 27 October 2006 (UTC)

anti-semetic is also another term that needs to be explained. i feel that someone is anti-semetic if they paint the entire group with one brush. i dont do that and i dont appreciate the term being used to describe me. i feel that you can be hebrew and agnostic, but not jewish and agnostic. it, to me is like claiming to be a catholic atheist. judaism is a religion. jewish is not a race. if you dont believe in god, then you cannot be jewish. Keltik31 22:39, 3 November 2006 (UTC)

You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means. See: Agnosticism. Spark* 22:47, 3 November 2006 (UTC)

which word? Keltik31 22:54, 3 November 2006 (UTC)

Agnosticism --Db099221 19:09, 4 November 2006 (UTC)

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