Talk:Belfast

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[edit] Ulster capital?

A couple of points:

does "Ulster" really have a "capital"? - a capital city is an active administrative role - "Ulster" is just a traditional/historical/geographical division of the island of Ireland. Perhaps it should say "was" the capital of Ulster? (was there a king there centuries ago?)
The article says Belfast's site has been inhabited since Iron Age times, but also claims it has been riven by sectarian strife for "most" of its existence. Since the Iron Age predates even CHRISTIANITY by many many centuries, never mind the Reformation, this is clearly an exageration! Was there sectarian strife in Belfast prior to partition in Ireland?

--feline1 07:49, 21 May 2005 (UTC)

Good points...

Ulster has not ever been an administrative unit so, yes I suppose it's not technically correct to say Belfast was the capital of Ulster... but that's the way people think of it, so I think it's a reasonable entry.

Sectarian strife was rife in Belfast in the 19th Century, developing particularly with mass immigration from places like County Armagh and South Derry were sectarian tensions had been high pretty much since the plantation. I'm not aware of any sectarian strife in the Iron Age! I'll fix.

Gerry Lynch 11:42, 21 May 2005 (UTC)

If Ulster had a capital wouldn't it be Armagh? Historically it was of a lot more significance than Belfast, and was the historical capital. See the first paragraph here: http://www.visit-armagh.com/ . Despite that though, is it worth having the 'capital of Ulster'? It's a very notional thing, and doesn't really add a lot to the article.

Ben Bulben 15:32, 16 Jun 2005 (UTC)

I'm not fussed personally, but no Belfast is definitely the capital of Ulster insofar as it has one. Ulster cultural and sporting institutions are based there, which sort of has to do as there are no Ulster wide administrative functions. Gerry Lynch 13:35, 19 July 2005 (UTC)

But that's the whole point - Ulster currently doesn't exist as a political or administrative entity, and therefore doesn't have a capital. However, presumeably the ancient kingdom of Ulster did have a captial (ie, the king had his seat somewhere)? If this was in Armagh, then Armagh was the capital of Ulster, not Belfast, and thus the respective articles should be corrected.--feline1 14:39, 19 July 2005 (UTC)

I've added two photos of murals in Belfast, and they are arranged to display only at the relevant section. There are more such photos available on Wikipedia Commons but I would suggest that we do not want to overpower the article and merely focus on sectarianism in Belfast.

Hopefully some more photos of Belfast would be forthcoming, any editors visiting the city or readers of this message could perhaps upload some photos.

zoney ♣ talk 22:05, 20 Mar 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Nationalists zealot PoV Mentalists

And yes, I am talking about *ewe* today, Lapsed Pacifist - why in the name of the sweet baby Jesus would an encylopedia article about Belfast (or indeed about any city in the world) not want to mention what country that city was in (currently the UK)? The fact that tedious nationalist zealots have similarly vandalized the Edinburgh article is no justification. This sort of behaviour is just juvenile. This is encyclopedia, on the Internet so people round the world can look up facts, not some vanity project to satisfy personal agendas. When Mrs B.Burgerbucket of Arkansas reads the article, it might be nice for her to be able to tell that Belfast is in the UK, not in Ireland or Norway or France. Perhaps we should, in the interests of balance and objectivity, add some stuff to the population section, where we explain "A large percentage of the population of Belfast are bigoted morons."--feline1 10:10, 31 August 2005 (UTC)

I have no problem with letting anyone from Arkansas know under which state's jurisdiction Belfast falls. However, "to be able to tell that Belfast is in the UK, not in Ireland" strikes me as less than precise. If you believe the behaviour of the contributors to the Edinburgh article is juvenile, you'll have to take it up with them. As regards "A large percentage of the population of Belfast are bigoted morons.", there's an element of truth in that, although it should probably be phrased more neutrally.

Lapsed Pacifist 11:17, 31 August 2005 (UTC)

/sighs/ OK, "...to be able to tell that Belfarce is in the UK, not the Republic of Ireland or Norway or France..." then. (I was not being as precise on a talk page as the articles themselves need to be, as ewe knew perfectly well what I meant!) Give me strength!--feline1 11:58, 31 August 2005 (UTC)

I think it is unneccessary to use United Kingdom, "Northern Ireland" would be quite sufficent because of its relationship with the UK - which is largely known by many and if not then one might aught to click on the link and "dig deeper" and find out for oneself. Djegan 20:07, 31 August 2005 (UTC)

[edit] WW2

I've removed the reference to World War Two - Belfast was bombed a grand total of twice in 1941, and it is simply inaccurate to say that much of the city was flattened. If anyone puts it back could they do so with a bit more perspective, please? Belfast in WW2 was not bombed to anything like the degree of most big English cities... let alone Berlin or Leningrad! Gerry Lynch 15:28, 20 May 2005 (UTC)

Gerry, I suggest that deV sending up the Fire brigade deserves a mention --ClemMcGann 22:54, 2 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Sounds sensible. Gerry Lynch 13:35, 19 July 2005 (UTC)

A large area around St. Anne's Cathedral was destroyed; it must be remembered that Belfast is very small, so it doesn't take a lot to flatten 'large sections'- Fionnuala

Outside of London, Belfast was one of the most heavily damaged cities in the UK during World War II. --Mal 20:48, 21 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Belfast

Belfast may only have been bombed twice during WW2 however lack of anti aircraft cover meant that there was a substantial amount of damage.

[edit] Joab

What was that 'River Joab' instead of the Farset thing all about?! Was someone just on the wrong drugs, or is that an alternative name for the buried river?--feline1 17:35, 8 Jun 2005 (UTC)

As far as I can see vandalism, the same anon created Armegh (Armagh?) which was quickly deleted on my recommendation. Djegan 17:56, 8 Jun 2005 (UTC)

[edit] City of Belfast vs. Belfast City Council

Material in the article table regarding area and population is somewhat dubious, in particular "City of Belfast" does not exist as an administrative area independent from the administrative area covered by the district served by Belfast City Council. And thus material from the latter would be more appropriate? Quite frankly the thought of styling "City of Placename" in Northern Ireland is mischevious as this implies that these places exist as administrative areas in their own right, which they do not, the City Council's hold the relevent legal documents and these are applicable for the whole area of the City Council district (except in the case of Newry). Djegan 20:18, 16 Jun 2005 (UTC)

The County Borough of Belfast (to which the City Charter is granted) has slightly different boundaries to Belfast Local Government District. The same is true in Derry. I think the Wikipedians had a big argument about this in a period when I wasn't posting. Gerry Lynch 13:35, 19 July 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Notable People

Rene Fusco? Can't agree that this is a notable person. Never heard of him myself and a google search yielded very few results. What's the procedure on deleting other people's edits? Stú 12:02, 26 July 2005 (UTC)

You have stated your objection here, that was polite. If there is no response, just edit the page yourself and remove the entry. "If he doesn't shout - rip it out!"--ClemMcGann 12:57, 26 July 2005 (UTC)

I wouldn't want to be the one to delete it, but is Ian Paisley a Belfast man?

I was the one who added Paisley - Paisley has lived in Belfast for 60 years - he orginated elsewhere but the notable people section is about people born/brought up/or living a significant part of their life in Belfast. For instance Dunlop who features was a Scot who lived in Belfast

David Dick? The Nobel site has no mention of him - deleting

I moved the Notable Belfast People to their own page as it was starting to dominate the Belfast page too much. Incidentally I added most of them so I have no problem doing this. It also means that in addition to an alphabetical list, they can be grouped by sports, politics, music etc.

[edit] Historic province of Ulster

Hi Feline1,

As you correctly point out above, claiming that Belfast is the "capital of Ulster" is inaccurate. However, the version I reverted to does not make this claim. It merely states the easily-verifiable fact that Belfast is the largest city in Ulster.

We've had problems before where a user went around inserting the words "historic province of" before all occurrences of the term "Ulster" in an attempt to push their POV that nine-county Ulster no longer existed and the term "Ulster" applied only to Northern Ireland. (not to mention other problems where a different user went around changing "Northern Ireland" to "Six Counties" all over the place.) While I'm sure this kind of POV-pushing wasn't your intent, please keep in mind that the geographical terms in Northern Ireland can be a hotly contested subject.

Hope this helps explain the reason for my revert.

Demiurge 13:02, 25 August 2005 (UTC)

Dungannon maybe?

[edit] Belfast co-ordinates

Checking my GPS - I have Lat: 54.59658 and Lon: -5.92983 for the approximate position for the Belfast City hall, the question is - where did the co-ordinates on the main page come from? A car park next the Westlink it seems

[edit] List of Districts

How was the listing of "Districts" derived? Is this an inclusive list of formal district names, or is it just an arbitrary collection of the names of different parts of town.

I think they are all Wards of Belfast, although I don't think it is a complete list. :: Keith :: 12:18, 24 December 2005 (UTC)

Its rather more arbitrary as some are not in Belfast as such being in what might be called Greater Belfast User:Biglobiglo

I would propose removing all the red links for now? Stu ^{’Bout ye!} 08:38, 25 April 2006 (UTC)

I have removed all the red links in the districts section, as well as the list of roads. I don't feel these are needed and were making the article very messy. I also reworded the murals section for the same reason. Stu ^{’Bout ye!} 09:09, 10 May 2006 (UTC)

A seperate article has been created for Main Roads of Belfast. I feel this isn't needed either. Anyone agree? Stu ^{’Bout ye!} 15:53, 15 May 2006 (UTC)

Deletion? Djegan 18:20, 15 May 2006 (UTC)

It's a bit unencyclopedic, really - Ali-oops^✍ 18:37, 15 May 2006 (UTC)

I went ahead and listed it. Stu ^{’Bout ye!} 08:10, 16 May 2006 (UTC)

[edit] History

How about moving the history section to its own article in line with the histories of Irish cities template? Any takers? Jdorney 15:30, 12 January 2006 (UTC)

I say go for it, but I am on holiday now. Djegan 18:29, 14 January 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Short break destination

"The city recently gained the status of being the 2nd most popular city in the UK, above London and Glasgow, for short breaks."

Anyone got any references for this? I find it hard to believe that more people come to Belfast than London (if, of course, that's what "most popular" means). I had a look in Google, but the best I could find was a link to this article! MartinRobinson 00:06, 1 March 2006 (UTC)

Yeah i that refs would be nice. I know belfast is making a "comeback", but it just seems a bit out of the ordinary to be the "2nd most popular city in the UK". --Boothy443 | trácht ar 06:01, 1 March 2006 (UTC)

As nothing seems to be forthcoming, I have removed the sentence quoted above from the end of the first paragraph. If anyone finds a recent reference, they should feel free to insert it again. MartinRobinson 12:50, 7 March 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Chinese

I would say this from the Ulster article

due to the considerable Chinese community of Belfast, the province's largest city. Belfast has more Chinese restaurants per capita than any other European city.

should be included here. In fact, I think the bit about Chinese restaurants should be removed from the Ulster article (the but about language and community should stay of course) Nil Einne 11:15, 1 April 2006 (UTC)

indeed even the history article doesn't mention the Chinese community (when did they come? why did they settle in Belfast? etc) Nil Einne 11:16, 1 April 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Murals

Has anyone thought about creating a separate article on Belfast murals? I have plenty of photos, which could be useful, but I do not really want to get involved in the writting (not my cup of tea, thank you) Regards,--Asterion 19:44, 16 April 2006 (UTC)

I think it is a good idea, but i would name it Northern Ireland/Irish murals, so that way murals from Derry and other cities could also be included. --Boothy443 | trácht ar 00:53, 17 April 2006 (UTC)

POV minefield, but yes the subject deserves an article. Agree with Boothy, it should be Northern Irish murals. Stu ^{’Bout ye!} 11:12, 18 April 2006 (UTC)

Yeah thos issues would be expected in a article of the thype, but the subject could have the poential to be a featured article. --Boothy443 | trácht ar 04:40, 19 April 2006 (UTC)

Forgot about this. I'm considering going ahead and creating a Northern Irish murals page. Initially I would intend to cut and paste most of the text from the mural page, leaving just the introductory paragraph and a See main article link. The article can be expanded from there. There are numerous Creative Commons images on Flickr that could be used for a <gallery> </gallery>. Plus if Asterion can provide any. Any suggestions? Stu ^{’Bout ye!} 13:26, 22 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] International Airport

A bit much to include the International Airport as part of Belfast perhaps, its a fair few miles outside the city (11 if I recall correctly) The article even states that its near Lough Neagh, the map shows how far away this is! Alastairward 18:37, 8 May 2006 (UTC)

I dont think so, it's not uncommon for the international airport of a city to be a distance away form the city proper or even the city center for that. --Boothy443 | trácht ar 04:43, 9 May 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Map

Should there not be a map that shows Belfast's position in the UK and in the island of Ireland, given that it is both a British and Irish city? The current one just shows where it is in Northern Ireland. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Stpaul (talk • contribs) 17:02, 10 May 2006.

I'd say a map showing where it is on the island of Ireland might be a good idea (with the border on it, before anyone has a tantrum! lol). The current map serves its purpose, showing where it is within NI, but it might be a little abstract for anyone not familiar with NI. And is it really necessary to show the parliamentary constituencies along with the location of Belfast? It should show the counties if anything. On the other hand, I don't think there is any need for a map with GB on it; Belfast is politically linked to GB as part of the UK, but a map is a geographical representation, and Belfast is simply located on the island of Ireland. Martin 14:14, 16 May 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Belfast sports teams

I'm Looking to write a section on Belfast Sports teams can anyone tell me where I should put this? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 86.144.90.103 (talk • contribs) 18:42, 13 May 2006.

Hi, I'd encourage you to register with Wikipedia before making major changes to any articles. That way, people will have more faith in your edits, and you can be contacted should anyone wish to discuss them with you. Martin 14:16, 16 May 2006 (UTC)

[edit] District pages merged

I merged some stubby district pages into the section on districts on this page. I redirected the old stubs here and removed some of the links from pages that linked to the districts that got merged. This is consistent with Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Precedents info on suburbs, which is the best guide I know. I also think it's just good practice not to have a short, individual article on every district of a big city like Belfast. --Kchase02 (T, C, e) 08:46, 23 May 2006 (UTC)

A one or two sentence stub seem rather useless and fit well into the main city article with a redirect from the district page unless there is some real substance to them. ww2censor 02:29, 24 May 2006 (UTC)

I'm not sure all those names should be in bold either. It looks a bit clutttered and I don't think it conforms to Manual of Style. Gerry Lynch 16:05, 19 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] CFD

The related Category:Members of the United Kingdom Parliament from Belfast constituencies has been nominated for deletion, merging, or renaming. You are encouraged to join the discussion on the Categories for Discussion page.

--Mais oui! 09:48, 24 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] World Gazetteer

The World Gazetteer gives no source or reference for its figures, so I've removed them pending that. Also, under no circumstances should the World Gazetteer figures be compared with the 2001 Census figures for the Belfast Urban Area; the two figures may not be calculated on the same basis - in fact given that 'estimated' increase of 17% or so, wildly unrealistic, they almost certainly aren't calculated on the same basis. Gerry Lynch 11:31, 25 July 2006 (UTC)

On the subject of population: [1] Stu ^{’Bout ye!} 12:02, 25 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Images

I propose replacing some of the images on this article. The quality of some of them isn't great, and I definitely think the murals should be changed. These paramilitary type murals aren't entirely typical anymore and there are better alternatives at Northern Irish murals. Ones that I suggest be included are:

Stu, they shouldn't just be corralled off in a gallery like that though - it makes the article a bit too drab and difficult to read. Also, there should be a 'highlight' image in the infobox as there is for most other cities - I'd suggest your one of the City Hall. User:Gerry Lynch 18 August 2006 at about midday.

Opinions? Stu ^{’Bout ye!} 10:55, 15 August 2006 (UTC)

Trying to whitewash the sectarian murals of the past, are we? ;-)--feline1 11:23, 15 August 2006 (UTC)

Give me a bucket of paint and I'll have a go! But I don't think it is necessary to portray an overly negative view of Belfast. Stu ^{’Bout ye!} 11:35, 15 August 2006 (UTC)

It's only necessary to portray an accurate one. Murals were first and foremost a public display of sectarianism, it would be egregious not to mention this in any encylopedia article on them.--feline1 11:49, 15 August 2006 (UTC)

I don't think that's what Stu is suggesting. In fact, I think he actually created a separate article on the very subject of murals in Northern Ireland. While the Troubles affected the whole of Northern Ireland, and Belfast suffered considerably as a result, there is much more to Belfast than just the Troubles, and I think that's the point Stu is making. --Mal 20:41, 21 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Belfast#Wildlife

Is this Wildlife paragraph really needed? I think perhaps it should atleast have some information added to it, or remove it completly. Not to mention the distinct lack of wildlife in Belfast, aside pigeons and rats. --Dom0803 18:28, 16 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Auto peer review suggestions

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[edit] Featured article

I've made a few changes today. These are to reflect what I've seen in other featured articles on cities. I don't think we're far away from featured status for Belfast. Peer review anyone? Or are there further changes that need to be made? Stu ^{’Bout ye!} 09:29, 21 September 2006 (UTC)

Submitted. --Mal 16:00, 23 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] 2nd Auto peer review

The following suggestions were generated by a semi-automatic javascript program, and might not be applicable for the article in question.

Per WP:MOS, avoid using words/phrases that indicate time periods relative to the current day. For example, recently might be terms that should be replaced with specific dates/times.^[1]
Per WP:MOSNUM, there should be a non-breaking space -   between a number and the unit of measurement. For example, instead of 18mm, use 18 mm, which when you are editing the page, should look like: 18 mm.^[3]
~~Per WP:MOSNUM, when doing conversions, please use standard abbreviations: for example, miles -> mi, kilometers squared -> km², and pounds -> lb.~~
~~Please alphabetize the interlanguage links.^[4]~~
There are a few occurrences of weasel words in this article- please observe WP:AWT. Certain phrases should specify exactly who supports, considers, believes, etc., such a view. For example,
- it has been
- might be weasel words, and should be provided with proper citations (if they already do, or are not weasel terms, please ~~strike~~ this comment).^[5]
Watch for redundancies that make the article too wordy instead of being crisp and concise. (You may wish to try Tony1's redundancy exercises.)
- Vague terms of size often are unnecessary and redundant - “some”, “a variety/number/majority of”, “several”, “a few”, “many”, “any”, and “all”. For example, “~~All~~ pigs are pink, so we thought of ~~a number of~~ ways to turn them green.”
- Temporal terms like “over the years”, “currently”, “now”, and “from time to time” often are too vague to be useful, but occasionally may be helpful. “I am ~~now~~ using a semi-bot to generate your peer review.”
Please ensure that the article has gone through a thorough copyediting so that the it exemplifies some of Wikipedia's best work. See also User:Tony1/How to satisfy Criterion 2a. ^[6]

You may wish to browse through User:AndyZ/Suggestions for further ideas. Thanks, Mal 15:11, 23 September 2006 (UTC)

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