Talk:Bayani

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I would be interested to talk with / meet Bayanis. Is it possible for outsiders to covert to Bayanism? I tried signing up for the discussion group (mentioned in the link, bayanic.org) but was turned away without explanation. Otherwise there seem to be no e-mail response links on either site. (The one for Bayan19 got sent back.)

Dear seeker

I am a Bayani and would be glad to answer your questions if I can. Please also see www.bayanic.com . As far as I know it is the only Bayani site with the most comprehensive collection of the Bayanic writings and their point of views on Bahaism.

Please email me on steveblomberg2@yahoo.com if you like to.

In response to your question, I must say yes it is not only possible but is the objective of the religion of Bayan to have as many believers as possible.

The primary requirement is to believe in Sayyid Ali-Muhammad (the Primal Point) as the current manifestation of God and the 18 Letters of the Living of Bayan.

As to the remarks below. The Primal Point announced in 1844 that he was the one promissed of of Islam (i.e. the Shia faction of Islam). He claimed the station of Bab-u'llah (Gate to the knowledge of god). Muslims who by popular belief were waiting for the twelfth Imam to re-appear associated Him with the twelfth Imam which was a mistake.

In the year 5 (Bab in abjad notation = 5) He called Himself the Qaiem (He Who Shall Rise). In the seventh year (1850) He called himself the Primal Point. The Bayanic calendar commences on this year. Please note that there was no change in the nature of his mission. This can be seen in his first writing (Comemntary on Surat-al Youseph).

For more details polease see: http://www.bayanic.com/intro/backg00.html

Regards

Steve -- 155.143.59.43 7 February 2006 12:09 (UTC)

I've never seen someone who claims to be a Bayani on wikipedia, but I guess I see no legitimate reason why you couldn't. I wrote this page just what I knew off my head, so you won't get many Bayanis here anyway. Just to warn you they're really not keen on Baha'is (sort of understandable) so that might be why they turned you away. If you speak farci you might have luck by going to Baha'i accademic sites and asking around (I've never done it so not sure). In particular check http://www.h-net.org/~bahai/ - they seem to have relatively good contact with the Bayani accademic circles, but they might not be keen on any proselytizing on their site. -- Tomhab 29 June 2005 11:34 (UTC)

Thank you! BTW I'm not a Baha'i, and I'm not interested in converting anybody.

Good luck in your search. I don't mean to be pessimistic but I'm not sure how much success you'll have. Its not the most prevalent religion in the west so its presence on the internet isn't really very large. -- Tomhab 1 July 2005 03:44 (UTC)

Contents 1 1848 as against 1844 2 Baha'i Monopolization of Bayani items on Wikipedia 3 Uzbekistan 4 Changes 5 Ahmad Bahaj 6 Ridvan-Ali

[edit] 1848 as against 1844

The Bab had three public claims each greater than the previous - In 1844, he claimed to be the Bab - the gate through which mankind could speak to the hidden Imam, then there were were two further claims that I always mix up, the most important of which was in 1848 where he claimed to abrogate Islamic law. Its mostly ignored by Baha'is as we believe he was always all three and that he was just gradually revealing his message. Also many prominent Babis knew of his claim.

Anyway, the point is it is significant to Bayanis that he only declared publically to abrogate islamic law in 1848. -- Tomhab 7 July 2005 09:43 (UTC)

[edit] Baha'i Monopolization of Bayani items on Wikipedia

It appears the Baha'i attempts to falsify history and monopolize subject matters related to Babism and the Bayani faith extends to all domains. People should know that the Baha'is are engaged in their typical ahistorical sectarian propaganda tactics on the listed items. I am happy to take this matter as far as it goes to get some kind of objectivity happening.

For the record, the Bab first title claimed was Remembrqnce (dhikr). This whole issue has been dealt with by Browne, Tumanskii, Nicloas and Todd Lawson. It boggles the mind that the Baha'is who are active reverting their propaganda as objective entries do not know this stuff.

-- Curandero101 11 October 2006

This is not the issue with your edits, but more the uncited Recent development section, as well as stating populations exist in Uzbekistan. Do you have any reliable sources for those statements. -- Jeff3000 04:49, 11 October 2006 (UTC)

Further, Azal's recent book has almost nothing to do with the Azalis, and he, himself, is not notable. His book is self-published, so it isn't a reliable source, even if you were to cite it. MARussellPESE 04:54, 11 October 2006 (UTC)

I just cited you an online source for Uzbekistan. If you want I'll find published harcopy journal material as well. Azal's book is citable and it does not in any way preclude in any manner, shape or form its not being cited. It includes a recent, published history of the Bayanis. But if you would like to cite specific criticisms out of Azal's book and why it does not meet such criteria, by all means, please feel free. -- Curandero101 11 October 2006

This text:

"Earlier in 2004 Australian based Iranian esotericist Wahid Azal had launched a yahoogroups list called Bayan19 specifically dedicated to discussions of the religion of the Bayan. But Wahid Azal's Bayani gnostic universalism reflects a radical antinomian departure from the Bayani creed. It is more of a Sufi and crypto-Isma'ili gnostic reinterpretation of the Bayani faith (with Azal's own ruminations on the mystical philosophy of Ibn Arabi as the background) rather than the Bayani faith in any standard orthodox formulation. His book Liber Decatriarchia Mystica (Library of the Most Great Name, Eastern Coast, Australia: 2006) does however dedicate an entire chapter to the early history of the Bayani faith from a standard Azali perspective."

is a review of Azal's book, and unless a reliable source has reviewed Azal's book, it is original research, which is not allowed. -- Jeff3000 05:05, 11 October 2006 (UTC)

Azal's book is a syncretic Gnostic/Sufi treatise of his. He has no reputation as an expert on Azali topics and his book as self-published is not a reliable source. This information is useless for the article. In fact he has no reputation at all. I Googled him and came up with about five hits. MARussellPESE 05:06, 11 October 2006 (UTC)

Your determination of reputation is based on a clear sectarian motivated assumption as a Baha'i, not on any criteria of objectivity. The fact that in an article on the Bayanis you persist in calling them Azalis is a dead giveaway. Your googling skills also require fine honing. Look in amazon.com and barnesnoble.com. Self-published is also no criteria here. There are plenty of academic resources that are self-published or PoD. The issue is that Azal's book is deliberately left out of the references here but referred in "recent" developments. Clearly you are barking at the wind! Now was there anything else?

-- Curandero101 11 October 2006

No, his obscurity stands all by itself. And it's pretty easy to type "Wahid Azal" into Google. It gets a whopping 63 hits, almost all of them blog entries of one sort or another. Including an empty blog of his: [1]

His book's editorial review entries on Amazon and B&N are taken verbatim from the entry for his book at his publisher's website [2].

Please seeWP:Verifiable for the definition of a reliable source. Self-published works are, by definition, not published by reputable publishers. That is the basic criteria for inclusion here. MARussellPESE 05:50, 11 October 2006 (UTC)

Mr Jeff, it surprises that a person of your acuity fails to see what a review is. This,

''Earlier in 2004 Australian based Iranian esotericist Wahid Azal had launched a yahoogroups list called Bayan19 specifically dedicated to discussions of the religion of the Bayan. But Wahid Azal's Bayani gnostic universalism reflects a radical antinomian departure from the Bayani creed. It is more of a Sufi and crypto-Isma'ili gnostic reinterpretation of the Bayani faith (with Azal's own ruminations on the mystical philosophy of Ibn Arabi as the background) rather than the Bayani faith in any standard orthodox formulation.'

Has nothing to do with a review of Azal's book, but is describing Azal. This,

"His book Liber Decatriarchia Mystica (Library of the Most Great Name, Eastern Coast, Australia: 2006) does however dedicate an entire chapter to the early history of the Bayani faith from a standard Azali perspective.''"

Is not a review of it either. It is positing content. Was there anything else?

-- Curandero101 11 October 2006

Sorry your points don't make any sense. Let's look at the sentences one by one.

"Earlier in 2004 Australian based Iranian esotericist Wahid Azal had launched a yahoogroups list called Bayan19 specifically dedicated to discussions of the religion of the Bayan."

This needs a citation from a reliable source, does the book state this? I don't know, but regardless forums with less than 30 posts on average a month are not notable. Please read the Wikipedia guidelines.

"But Wahid Azal's Bayani gnostic universalism reflects a radical antinomian departure from the Bayani creed."

Who said this? You state it's about Azal himself, but it most probably comes from reading his book. Thus there needs to be someone else who reviewed his beliefs, or the book and says this. Without someone else stating it, there is no citation, and is original work, can can't be included.

"It is more of a Sufi and crypto-Isma'ili gnostic reinterpretation of the Bayani faith (with Azal's own ruminations on the mystical philosophy of Ibn Arabi as the background) rather than the Bayani faith in any standard orthodox formulation."

Same comment as above, it's about his beliefs, which most probably come from the book, and therefore a review of his beliefs (or the book is needed).

"His book Liber Decatriarchia Mystica (Library of the Most Great Name, Eastern Coast, Australia: 2006) does however dedicate an entire chapter to the early history of the Bayani faith from a standard Azali perspective."

Who said that a chapter is devoted to the early history from an Azali perspective. It needs a review of the book in a reliable source. -- Jeff3000 05:32, 11 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Uzbekistan

Well according to this [3] from Curandero101 we can get rid of almost all of this article because it doesn't mention Subh-i-Azal at all and goes on to state: "The actual number of Babis is very small: their geography is now limited to Uzbekistan." Apparently they are extinct in Iran. Seriously, this entry is useless. MARussellPESE 05:53, 11 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Changes

The item re: Wahid Azal regarding recent developments has been removed, for now. Otherwise the current version is a far better entry than the badly written item of before. You will note that the issue of the Uzbek Bayanis has come up elsewhere, besides the Encyclopedia of the Orient entry. However, per your own criteria and that of Wikipedia it is verifiable information. This is the first order of business.

I would like to ask if the two good Baha'i gentleman could source me an impartial, academic peer reviewed article of Shoghi Effendi's "God Passes By" in a refereed journal that fits the definitions of impartiality and reliability that you are demanding for others.

User:Haqiqat101 12:21, 12 October 2006 (UTC)

I have gone through and fixed some problems, some concerning the Manual of style, others just better grammer, others to fix the red links, and also quoting the Encyclopedias directly relating to the population. Finally, I also combined the two versions of the recent developments paragraph.

Also note that we did not ask for an academic peer reviewed review of the Wahid Azal book, but just a review in a reliable source as defined by Wikipedia. Furthermore the statements, from that old paragraph had to do with Wahid Azal, and not about the Bayanis. I would also like to note, that using a different userid is sockpuppetry and is not allowed to evade a block. -- Jeff3000 03:00, 12 October 2006 (UTC)

sockpuppetry is clearly the function of the Baha'i contingency here who are determined to foist their own sectarian slants and biases on virtually every Babi/Bayani related topic on Wikipedia. What is going on here is therefore a Baha'i propaganda war, pure and simple, and what the Baha'i contingency is responsible for doing here is abusing those privileges and the trust of Wikipedia by pursuing such clearly obvious underhanded propaganda aims on behalf of their authorities.

Now the claim that a son of Subh-i-Azal became a Baha'i is absolutely spurious, a claim made exclusively by Shoghi Effendi out of malice, therefore with no foundation or independent historical value at all. It is directly refuted by Badieh Mirati Nuri in herA True Account of Takur in Nur, also available online here at Babieh.com as well on H-Bahai. This myth is also directly contradicted as well as challenged by yet another source, namely Attiyyeh Nuri, who seems to suggest that the son in question (who is to have become a Baha'i) was already either in Iran on such a date, or possibly already dead; this, when his so-called fictional conversion in Acre is said to have occured by Shoghi Effendi. Also neither E.G. Browne nor the French Bayani scholar, A-L-M Nicolas, have reported such an incident. No mention by them anywhere is perceptible. Yet credence is given to a Baha'i pontiff's spurious claims in a Wikipedia article regarding members of the family of the rival creed.

Furthermore, Bayanic.com is not a website of the followers of Subh-i-Azal. Nor are the webmasters of Bayanic.com claiming to represent the Bayani community. Unless, that is, you wish to suggest also the Universal House of Justice in Israel is claiming to represent you Baha'is when there are several guardian contenders disputing the very legitimacy of your religious authorities in Israel. Bayanic.com is a website of the Bayani community and by the Bayani community therefore there is no claim to what is blatantly obvious. The typical flippant and sarcastic language, diction and phraesology being deliberately used here by you Baha'is to characterize the Bayanis, history and their holy figures (subject matters you have no business even editing), while sometimes subtle, is also transparently malicious and motivated purely by your hate and sectarian biases against the Bayani community programmed into you by your authorities.

Haqiqat101

Note that wikipedia policy is to remain civil and to assume good faith. Statements like "What is going on here is therefore a Baha'i propaganda war, pure and simple" are not tolerated. I have not yet reported your sockpuppettry, but are you claiming that User:Haqiqat101 and User:Curandero101 are different people?. -- Jeff3000 13:06, 12 October 2006 (UTC)

Please note that "claim" is appropriate used to describe entries that are not corroborated. Bayanic.com is itslef a self-reference, therefore, in English, "claim" is perfectly accurate and not a perjorative.

By comparison the Universal House of Justice is widely recognized as representing the Baha'is. You may start with various United Nations agencies for corroboration.

That there was confusion over who was the successor is verified by Browne. There was no confusion over whether Azal appointed one - he seems to have appointed several. Please read the source material before you consider removing it.

With respect to Azal's son (Ahmad Bahhaj) leaving the Bayani community and becoming a Baha'i, two points:

1. Shoghi Effendi was a resident in Haifa during the time-frame in question, therefore an eyewitness. On this point God Passes By is a first-hand account, a primary source. "Peer review" is irrelevant. This is a valid source and going back in.

1. Moojan Momen has independent confirmation of this here and is based on another first-hand account: Lady Blomfield. Thanks for the prodding. I've added it in.

That Azal's sons had some difficulty remaining in the fold is identified by both Momen and Browne. MARussellPESE 14:20, 12 October 2006 (UTC)

Report me to whomseover you wish. I quoted you two non-Baha'i primary sources that directly contradict your assertion. There is more. Both sources have more credibility than the concocted propaganda nonsense of the Baha'is. Neither Browne, Nicolas, Jalal Azal, William Miller, Avarih, Sobhi or anyone other than Baha'i sources makes this spurious claim. The onus is on Baha'is to prove the verifiability that Ahmad Bahhaj became a Baha'i beyond sectarian sources of their own spurious canon. Ahmad Bahhaj, according to his own relative, died in the 00s of the last century. Shoghi Effendi would have been a child. This claim is nonsense and as such must be removed.

That neither Browne, et. al., make this assertion is proof that it didn't happen is specious. The absence of evidence isn't evidence of absence.

Further, Jalal Azal, William Miller, Avarih, Sobhi, et. al., would be the last people to substantiate that Azal's own son left him. So, of course, they'd be silent.

These "sources" of yours are useless.

1. You assert that Bayanic.com doesn't represent the current followers of Azal, when that's what it says on it's front page.
2. You point at Bayanic.com sites (Your A True Account of Takur in Nur & Attiyyeh Nuri "sources".) and then call the Baha'i sources biased, even propaganda. The idiom in English is that's "the pot calling the kettle black".
3. You point to two Arabic or Farsi texts (Your Babieh.com and H-Bahai "sources".) as sources and expect this to fly on English wikipedia.
4. Your assertion that Shoghi Effendi's being a child makes him an invalid witness is likewise specious. I remember the members of my community from childhood thirty plus years ago. I'm sure you do too.
5. You dismiss Shoghi Effendi, but are silent on Momen, who went to Cyprus and did actual fieldwork that formed the basis of his paper. This is better historical research than many "experts" on the Baha'i Faith in recent years.
6. Your own English source (A True Account of Takur in Nur) says that Ahmad Bahaj died in Haifa during Shoghi Effendi's tenure, and after rebuffing requests to disavow his father, Azal, fell into disesteem — meaning prior he had been held in esteem by Shoghi Effendi? This is internally inconsistent. How would he have been held in esteem, yet held to his faith in his father? Why would Shoghi Effendi ask him to pen a rebuttal to his father unless he had some expectation that he would do so?
7. You state that he died in the '00s, yet this last source says he lived into the '20s at least. The lack of any dates at all in the genealogy undermines its credibility as well.
8. Your other English source (Attiyyeh Nuri) doesn't even mention Ahmad Bahhaj. How can it refute this when it's not even on-topic?

Finally, you seem to think that this episode has deep meaning to Baha'is. This episode is treated in a single line in a single book. The disintegration of the Azali community has ample evidence without this point. I put this in because it's sourced, per wikipedia policy, and is illustrative. That there's all of one Bayani website and about a score Baha'i sites that are significantly more robust, and probably a hundred others of similar quality, is evidence enough. But it does matter to Azalis that these "defections" be minimized wherever possible, so I understand your heat.

And why do you insist on reverting the passage to read membership "devolving" onto the remnants of the family? "Devolve" is perjorative, and its the Baha'is trying to remove it.

If you want contentious edits to stick, you need to do your homework and come in with verifiable sources. You also can't willy-nilly remove other sources, unless you can demonstrate that they are so biased as to be unreliable. This point has two different observers reporting the same event. Corroboration = reliability. MARussellPESE 05:20, 14 October 2006 (UTC)

That neither Browne, et. al., make this assertion is proof that it didn't happen is specious.

On the contrary the very fact that the most noteworthy non-Baha'i sources do not lend an iota of credibility to this assertion is proof that the claim is specious and motivated solely by a sectarian agenda. Funny that to lend support to your non sequitor, you should then say,

The absence of evidence isn't evidence of absence.

In the future kindly remind the reader the source of this statement above as being Donald Rumsfeld, such non sequitors being used by the American secretary of defense as justification for the invasion of Iraq due to its so-called possession of weapons of mass destruction -- now solidly proven to be a spurious and specious claim for the American invasion of Iraq. You have just proven precisely why the line is to be taken out.

Further, Jalal Azal, William Miller, Avarih, Sobhi, et. al., would be the last people to substantiate that Azal's own son left him.

You say that based on sectarian bias. These sources have meticulously reported on every facet of the movement, its splinters and controversies. I also note that you leave out EG Browne and Nicolas. Nor do you deign to mention that Denis MacEoin has dismissed the claim in his Divisions and Authority Claims article. Moojan Momen is a biased source on Babi and Bayani history because 1) he is a Baha'i and 2) Denis MacEoin has already revealed the nature of such bias.

Finally, you seem to think that this episode has deep meaning to Baha'is.

Because it does. A myth fabricated and oft repeated with a spurious geneology of self-manufactured propagandistic literature lending support to such speciousness is designed solely as a means to discredit and tarnish; this, even though there is not an iota of fact or truth involved.

That Azal's sons had some difficulty remaining in the fold is identified...Browne

Nothing of the sort you are asserting is mentioned by Browne. Rizwan-'Ali, who is a different son altogether, changed his name to Constantine the Persian and made an outward conversion to Orthodox Christianity. In the religion of the Bayan dissimulation (taqiyyah) is permitted and such an act was merely an outward confession in an environment of a post-Turkish occupation in Larnaca hostile to Muslim elements. Bayanis are not like Baha'is who are held on a short confessional leash by their leaders. You will note that it is the progeny of Rizwan-Ali who are today the present caretakers of Azal's shrine.

Devolve also has the connotation of falling back or on to something.

[edit] Ahmad Bahaj

Jalal Azal was a descendent of Subh-i Azal and a cousin of Ahmad Bahaj who visited Palestine during the tenure of Abbas Effendi and married Ismat the daughter of one of Mirza Husayn-Ali’s son Badiullah. Concerning Ahmad Bahaj he says: Ahmad Bahaj was a playmate of Abbas Effendi during the Baghdad period and grew up in Baha’s house there. After the First World War Abbas Effendi invited him to Haifa. He accepted the invitation and visited him. He died in Haifa during Shoghi Effendi’s tenure of office and at his instance, Mirza Abd-al-Husayn Ayati surnamed Awara approached him [i.e. Ahmad Bahaj] several times to write a refutation of his father. This, Ahmad Bahaj refused, and he fell into disesteem. Shoghi Effendi’s statement in god passes by, P. 233 that Ahmad Bahaj expressed repentance, prayed for forgiveness, was graciously accepted by him [i.e. Abbas Effendi], and remained till the hour of his death, a loyal follower of the faith,’ is devoid of historical foundation.

To date, there is no evidence to suggest that Ahmad Bahaj became a Bahai. Shoghi also appears to have had other skewed impressions of Ahmad Bahaj:

In God Passes By, which is filled with foul language and expression of hatred for Subh-i Azal, amongst other false accusations, he says: “.. he (i.e. Subh-i Azal) deprived that son and his descendents of the successorship with which he had previously invested him”.

Shoghi must have confused himself with the Bahai style of succession where the son gets to succeed the father in taking the seat of prophet-hood. Never Subh-i Azal vested any status in his sons. He was the Mirat (the Mirror) of the Point of Bayan (i.e. Sayyid Ali-Muhammad) and held the command of the religion of Bayan whilst he lived and left no will and by that according to the Point’s testamentary tablet to Subh-i Azal the command of Bayan was returned to the Witnesses of Bayan (i.e the believers in Bayan).

[edit] Ridvan-Ali

Concerning Ridvan-Ali, Browne says he adopted Christianity and the name Constantine. It is not clear if Browne concluded he became a Christian because he adopted Constantine or whether he had asked him directly.

But the important thing to consider is that Ridvan-Ali copied much of the manuscripts that Browne held and was later passed to Cambridge and British libraries. At the back of each one of these copies, Ridvan-Ali does three things: 1- He uses the name ‘Ridvan-Ali’, nowhere he mentions Constantine

2- He dates the completion of the copying of the manuscript using mainly Bayanic calendar.

3- In some instances he signs as follows: Written by this servant, the Babi Ridvan-Ali (see Commentary on Surat-al Val-Asr copied by him and sent to Browne).

Taking Ridvan-Ali’s own words as to how he identified himself, his preferred name was Ridvan-Ali and he also knew himself as a Babi. It appears that he used the name Constantine in a similar way as Chinese these days adopt Western names. At home they use their Chinese name and their identification papers bears their Chinse name and they are not Christian either. It appears that Browne concluded that he must have changed his religion because he used a Christian name in public.

In any case, Subh-i Azal’s sons were only his sons and had no status in the religion of Bayan. This is in sharp contrast with the Bahai system where all sons were credited with “divine attributes” because they were “branches” branching from Husayn-Ali (i.e. Baha). Such associations in Bayan do not bring any status. Consider that even the Point’s maternal uncle who also became a martyr did not earn a divine attribute.

Haqiqat

Taqiyyah was a Shi`a doctrine that was abandoned as unvirtuous by the Babis, who gave their lives by the thousands instead of renouncing their Faith. The practice is not mentioned anywhere in the teachings of the Bab, and wasn't practiced by his followers. How is it then, that Mirza Hadiy-i-Dawlat-Abadi (appointed by Azal) proceeded to several times gain a public audience and renounce both the Bab and Subh-i-Azal, then modern Bayanis claim he was using Taqiyyah to cover up the embarrassment? It appears that several prominent Bayanis renounced their faith without being under the threat of death, and anti-Baha'is will claim Taqiyyah. And why is it that anyone wishing to defame the Baha'i Faith will instantly become supporters of Subh-i-Azal, becoming familiar with a bunch of polemic writers like Miller and claiming that they are the ultimate authority? This is nonsense, even EG Browne, possibly the best source among them, made enormous factual errors, and was an opium addict. MARussellPESE was right, this is not important to Baha'is, because the facts are simple: those who chose to follow Subh-i-Azal faded away into nothingness. A fact that is a mere footnote in the history of the Baha'i Faith. Cuñado - Talk 18:28, 14 October 2006 (UTC)

These points of yours are argumentative and non-responsive. You accuse others of sectarian bias at the same time you remove opposing views and cite your own even more dubious sources. You make sweeping statements and provide no sources. You assert that Browne made no such statement when the citation is immediately in front of you.

"The absence of evidence is not evidence of absence" is much older than Rumsfeld — try Aristotle. This is an axiom of logic and reason and exposes an argument from ignorance. That these figures you cite have "have meticulously reported on every facet of the movement" still doesn't get to the point that others have independent observations of the event.

If, of Azal's numerous sons, it's recorded that Rizvan Ali left to become Christian, Ahmad Bahaj became a Baha'i, and most of the rest of the family appeared to be pass as Muslim (Browne, MacEoin and others), then the sons did indeed have difficulty remaining in the fold.

Ahmad Bahhaj's conversion isn't "fabricted and oft repeated". It was witnessed and mentioned all of once, and even then, not by name. It takes Momen to put his name on it. But by the way, thanks for the reminder about Rizvan Ali. I can dig up a source and drop that in too.

By the way could you provide a source from the Báb for "dissimulation" being permitted? It would seem that from Azal forward this was a central tenent, practice, and even a way of life for him and his followers. However, as Cuñado points out, neither Mulla Hussein, Quddus, nor Tahirih would be impressed. The Báb Himself certainly never "dissimulated" his teachings. Only Azal could turn cowardice into a virtue and he did so with a vengance.

If you want to keep the connotation that the Azalis have "devolved", that's your call apparently, but it certainly makes the Baha'i case of the obscurity and influence of this sect.

Don't remove bona fide corroborating sources. This violates wikipedia policy. You'll get reverted without further comment. MARussellPESE 21:33, 14 October 2006 (UTC)

:Taqiyyah was a Shi`a doctrine that was abandoned as unvirtuous by the Babis, who gave their lives by the thousands instead of renouncing their Faith.

This is clearly nonsense, to wit,

"Do not reveal the word of your Lord to those who would deny it. Observe the practice of taqiyyah (dissimulation) in order to avoid persecution and imprisonment” Letter from the Bab adressed to Mulla Husayn, INBA No 91, IV, p 10-14, cited in Amanat, p. 200 See also Manuchehri, http://www.h-net.org/~bahai/notes/vol3/taqiya.htm

:#You dismiss Shoghi Effendi, but are silent on Momen, who went to Cyprus and did actual fieldwork that formed the basis of his paper. This is better historical research than many "experts" on the Baha'i Faith in recent years.

I wasn't silent on Momen. Momen is a biased source all around. MacEoin already exposed his selective treatment of sources over two decades ago.

The absence of evidence is not evidence of absence" is much older than Rumsfeld — try Aristotle.

This is a straw man, a non sequitor and an outright lie. I know Aristotle backwards and forwards. No such statement will be found in any of Aristotle's works on logic. Do you mind citing precisely which of the Stagirite's works such a statement comes from? Also quote the passage number. Thanks. Is the Prior or Posterior Analytics where this statement appears?? It surely is not in the canon of Aristotle's formal works.

The reversions are going to be made again. According to "Baha'i teachings" has no relevence to an entry on Bayanis. This is an entry on the Bayanis not the Baha'is. Stick to your own topics. Leave ours alone.

User: Haqiqat/Haqiqat

Argument from ignorance is still argument from ignorance and fallacial reasoning. Rhetoric is an ancient science that began with Aristotle. I suggested that you start looking there. Apparently you haven't found it yet. Try here.

Interesting that MacEoin "exposed" this work of Momen's years before he wrote it. Momen's paper is dated 1991. MacEoin hasn't been active in Babi research since the mid-eighties.

On dissimulation (taqiyyah): If you'd actually read Manuchehri you cite you'd note these:

• . The Bab's use of it lasted a very short time, was tempered by necessity, and something he abandoned. From Manuchehri's conclusions [all emphasis mine]:

"4. At the time of the revelation of Bab, the ferocity of prejudice and hatred was such that He first revealed his position as the Deputy to the Hidden Imam. Taqiyyah was an essential requirement during the early phase of the revelation simply because the level of prejudice within the society could have totally crushed the movement before it had a chance to spread.

5. The Bab even ordered many of his followers to practice taqiyyah in order to spread the cause and carry out importance services for the faith.

6. As the Babi cause progressed and their numbers grew, the Bab revealed his true identity as the Hidden Imam and a manifestation from God. This claim effectively made the Babi faith independent from other Shi`ite sects. Mulla Husayn was now appointed to the position of Deputy of the Hidden Imam."

And when he did reveal his take on his identity, he did so spectacularly:

"I am, I am the Promised One! I am the One Whose name you have for a thousand years invoked, at Whose mention you have risen, Whose advent you have longed to witness, and the hour of Whose Revelation you have prayed God to hasten. Verily, I say, it is incumbent upon the peoples of both the East and the West to obey My word, and to pledge allegiance to My person."

• This was a practice that was not encouraged:

"Prominent Babi leaders never encouraged other believers to practice taqiyyah.. In situations where a Babi questioned his loyalties or doubted his beliefs, they were advised to make a personal choice."

• This (taqiyyah) was a difficult point of conscience for many:

"Many learned and respected Babis practiced taqiyyah before and after the martyrdom of the Bab in order to avoid involvement in various uprisings, persecutions and afflictions. Such Babis were fully aware of the significance of their actions. Many chose to assist their fellow Babis secretly in times of need. The scope of such assistance was limited to their degree of caution and taqiyyah.

It appears that these Babis were not ready to sacrifice their positions, titles and life comforts for their faith. taqiyyah amongst them was no longer a tool to protect the identity of the Bab or his position. This requirement was largely superseded after the execution of the Bab. These Babis represented the prosperous class of ulama and Bazari merchants who were in some way dependent on the ulama or the ruling establishment for their survival.

It is interesting to note that many from this group later changed their ways, declared their faith and lost their life for the cause. Clearly they had an internal struggle between conscientious belief and human desires. A struggle that resulted in them abandoning the practice of taqiyyah."

• Finally, Manucheri has these conclusions:

"12. Bahaullah clearly announced that the recognition of the manifestation of God and ‘steadfastness’ His Cause is more important than observing any of the other teachings. Gradual abandonment of taqiyyah amongst the Baha’is was one of the distinguishing feature of the new religion from the Babi era. After this time the practice of taqiyyah became unofficially superseded.

13. In contrast the Azali Babis glorified taqiyyah in their literature. Taqiyyah was considered a virtue and classified into various levels of concealment. Prominent Azali leaders openly recanted their faith and even abused Bab and Azal in the process. The extent of taqiyyah in their words and actions caused Mirza Abu’l-Fadl to question Edward Browne’s method of portraying of Azali Babis. Taqiyyah became one of the distinguishing features of the Azali-Bahai split."

• In fact, according to Manucheri, the practice was so widespread among Azalis that:

"Mirza Aqa Khan and other Azalis claimed loyalty to the Bab and his teachings. Yet they attributed such falsities and attacks on his character. This duality in approach reduced their moral credentials amongst the Babis and nullified their vehement campaign against Bahaullah."

Point, game, set, and match: Azal et. al. did indeed elevate cowardice into a virtue, and is a distiguishing characteristic of the sect. This skulking about stands in stark contrast, not only to the Bab and Baha'u'llah, but the thousands who died identifying themselves with this faith. This "cowardice as virtue" has always been widely known, but you presented a peach of a reference. Thank you. This will find a nice home here. And this has been fun. MARussellPESE 04:34, 16 October 2006 (UTC)