Talk:Battle of Gaugamela

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Contents 1 Anniversary Oct 1 2 Dates in battle page names 3 Pronunciation 4 Is that Gaugamela or Issus? 5 Date wrong: 6 Question 7 Army Size 8 Authoritative Sources

[edit] Anniversary Oct 1

An event mentioned in this article is an October 1 selected anniversary.

[edit] Dates in battle page names

I moved the page back to the original name. See Wikipedia:WikiProject Battles no need for date in name unless as a disambiguation.

If you wish the page name to include the year and it is not for disambiguation, please discuss it under Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Battles#Dates in battle page names --Philip Baird Shearer 10:52, 4 September 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Pronunciation

I know this may not be the most pressing of questions, but how are the vowels of 'Gaugamela' pronounced?

I (English) always thought it was pronounced the same as 'cow cammeller', but the narrator of a history programme (American) pronounced it 'gwagameela'. I think he was wrong, but I can not think of any other time I have heard it said (not something most people have conversations about!). Oswax 20:53, 22 September 2005 (UTC)

According to the American Heritage Dictionary, it's /ˌgɔgəˈmilə/ (/gô'gə-mē'lə/ in their notation). —Simetrical (talk) 05:16, 30 October 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Is that Gaugamela or Issus?

The Brueghel painting on this page comes from the commons, where it is also identified as Gaugamela, but there's a lot info on the web suggesting that it might depict the Battle of Issus. Google gives far more English results for "Battle of Issus" + Brueghel than for Arbela or Gaugamela, and there are some sites [1] [2] [3] that list both Issus and Arbella as the title. I suspect that the subject of the painting might really not be known, or might be disputed, but if anyone has access to a reputable source (like the title the Louvre displays), it would be nice to make sure that our caption is accurate. ×Meegs 08:57, 15 January 2006 (UTC)

I found this photo credit: "The Battle of Arbelles, or the Battle of Issus, 1602 (oil on canvas), Brueghel, Jan the Elder (1568-1625) / Louvre, Paris, France, / Bridgeman Art Library" from [4]. I think the painter may have confused the two battles -- I don't see any reference to "the battle of Arbelles" anywhere except in the name of this painting, but assume it means "the battle of Arbela". I think the photo can stay. What do you think? --Jeffrey Henning 05:13, 16 February 2006 (UTC)

Sure, we can keep the image, but there's no reason to hide this detail. What do you think about changing the caption to something like the credit you found? ×Meegs 14:19, 16 February 2006 (UTC)

That makes total sense to me. But should probably add a note to the effect "Painter may have confused the separate battles of Arbela and Issus." --Jeffrey Henning 03:13, 17 February 2006 (UTC)

Well, we don't know that for sure, and such detail probably doesn't belong in a caption anyway. If the painting's subject is truly unknown, or was somehow confused, then it probably doesn't belong at the top of this article; I'll leave that decision to others. I'm happy enough now that it's labeled properly. ×Meegs 03:47, 17 February 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Date wrong:

Aelian (Var. Hist. 2.25) has the date as the 6th of Thargelion, roughly the beginning of May. Haiduc 03:01, 5 April 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Question

The article says, "The battle is also inaccurately called the Battle of Arbela." In which sense is this incorrect? - Nat Krause^(Talk!) 22:59, 8 April 2006 (UTC)

I also would like to know why the alternative name is "inaccurate." Why can't it just say "The battle is also called the Battle of Arbela"? Or, "The battle is less commonly called the Battle of Arbela"?- Mark1000 30 Sep 2006 (I'm afraid I'm new to "talk," so I don't know what that link means. I apologize for any ettiquette violations.)

---

This is a good site for this stuff http://monolith.dnsalias.org/~marsares/warfare/battle/gaugamel.html I am the anonymous making the changes, in accordance to this source

[edit] Army Size

These numbers are inflated. There is no way the Persians had so many men. Historians cannot put numbers on battles this ancient and on battles that have so widely been exaggerated for thousands of years no matter how hard they try. I say we put both armies at unknown numbers.Khosrow II 04:49, 23 July 2006 (UTC)

Yes they could have been so large see [5]. Since the time of Niebuhr it has been accepted as a doctrine in the west that before the modern era armies could have never measured more than 100,000. This goes against a fundamental principle in science: there is no such thing as doctrine, doctrine is for religion only. The Persians had a population base of 70,000,000 at the time Alexander invaded, and managed to send 400,000+ in Greece in 480 BC (after 10 years of preparations). Ancient sources consistenly give 600 as the size of a Persian fleet unit (though this meant 138,000 rowers and marines). As for land army 60,000 as the size of a corps and 300,000 as the size of an army unit. These numbers come from various sources including the eye-witnesses Xenophon and Ctesias. Why would Ctesias, who wrote from Persian sources and was Artaxerxes Memnon's personal physician, lived in the Persian court and saw armies every day exagerate about their size? The Persians were much more capable of supplying large armies than they are being given credit. PS I am 143.233.183.210 who changed the page. More some reason I got logged off. Ikokki 13:07, 3 October 2006 (UTC)

Those are very incorrect. First of all, the population of the Persian Empire at that time was around 40 million maximum. The Greeks were known for exaggerating everythign to make themselves look better. If you think about it, if an army of the size the Greeks said they faced in Persian actual existed, then there would be no way the Greeks could possibly win. No matter how good they were, they would eventually have been overrun. For example, the Greeks at thermopolae, who had everything to their advantage, were eventually over run, so how is it that Alexanders army, that fought on open terrain, could not be overrun? Its these things that dont make sense. The numbers were greatly exaggerated, and there was no way the Kings of Persia could sustain such large armies. Not even the Romans, who had twice the population of the Persian Empire, were able to raise that large of an army.Khosrow II 22:18, 3 October 2006 (UTC)

Even if you disagree with the assertion do not remove references. Better yet, put up a reference with those that support your numbers. If the Persian empire had a population of 40,000,000 at 5% draft rate (the rate for modern armies) it could draft an army of 800,000. However in antiquity the draft rate was more like 30%, that part of the Greek population was drafted for Plataea. Now the Persian had 300,000 at Plataea, not only because Herodotus said so but because,as Macan and Munro have pointed out, he gives the names of 29 Μυριαρχοι that is leaders of the baivabaram. The baivabaram had 10,000 soldiers. Now if the Persians had managed to sent (albeit with 10 years of preparation) 400,000+ soldiers to Greece, why could they not draft 250,000 (Rufus' number) in Gaugamela? I do not believe that Greek writers are exaderating in Persian numbers, I believe that their modern critics are excessively dogmatic in their approach. And no, the Roman Empire had a smaller population than the Persian Empire. At its maximum, in the second century AD it had a population no more than 70,000,000 with a lower population density, especially in the West. The Persians controlled Asia Minor, Syria and Egypt (like the Romans) but also the densely populated Mesopotamia, the Iranian Plateau and Bactria thus having a larger population. Ikokki 11:04, 4 October 2006 (UTC)

We must not forget the the hoplites were the most heavily armed soldiers in the world (or at least in the West) at that time. In Thermopylae the Greeks lost because on the third day a local man showed the Persians the Anopaia Odos and the Persians encircled the Greek force. Let us not forget what happened earlier: According to Ctesias (who mostly wrote to please his Persian sponsors and used the Persian archives) the first 10,000 Persian soldiers sent were cut down to the last with the losses of 2 or 3 Greeks only (see Persica paragraph 27). In Pampremis the Egyptians were losing the battle to the Persians until the Athenians defeated the Persians opposite them and created a breach which the Egyptians used to defeat the Persians, again, the heavy armor of the hoplite was sucsessfull. It was not a racial thing, in the Battle of Gaza in 201 BC the Egyptians also formed a very sucsesfull phalanx. In any case Glotz accepts that at least 3 Persians were necessary to defeat one hoplite. Considering that it was never certain where the loyalty of Greek hoplites working for the Persians was to be, it is reasonable for the Darius to raise an Asian army capable of defeating on its own Alexander's force.

Numerical superiority helps but is not a prequisite for victory. Especially before gunpowder quality and discipline were a major factor. The Roman never raised huge armies because they never needed them. In the West, except for the Punic Wars, the Romans were mostly facing barbarians. In the East, they always had allies. Let us remember though that at the battle of Alesia Ceasar deafeted an army 6 to 7 times his size, why shouldn't Alexander? The Persians were fully capable of defeating Alexander until Darius fled the battle, leading to his army's dissolution. In case you disagree, that is acceptable. Do not remove though what ancient sources say. Change the phrasing so that, like at Battle of Thermopylae it says both theories over. Do not POV the article.Ikokki 11:33, 4 October 2006 (UTC)

You are getting many many thigns mixed up, especially with modern times. First of all, the population of the whole word at that time was probably a bit over 100 million, and the Persian Empire certainly did not posses 70 million of the entire population of the earth. Secondly, armies more than tens of thousands could not be supported at that time unless they were nomadic armies, which the Persians were not. Thirdly, if you say had as much men as you say for just one battle, then how could the Romans not summon such great armies? The Roman Empire had more people in it than the Persian empire did for its time period. Greek historians, as well as all historians in ancient times, exaggerated things a lot. Even Iranian historians did. For example, Iranian historians claimed an army of 300,000 Turks were defeated by only 12,000 Savaran (Persia's elite units) during the time of the Sassanid Empire.

Furthur disproving you and ancient Greek historians is the fact that as time moved on and sources became more credible, we know that the Romans and Parthians, and the Byzantines and Sassanids did not fight with armies in the hundreds of thousands. We also know that the Muslims and Christians did not fight with armies of hundreds of thousands. The fact is that Greek historians exaggerated a lot, you have to accept this.Khosrow II 20:23, 4 October 2006 (UTC)

The population of the world was around 200,000,000 at that time. The Roman empire had a population of 45 million in 14 AD out of 300,000,000 total (see [6] The Byzantines did send 135,000 at the time of Leo the Thracian to conquer the Vandal Kingdom (which failed), the Avar and Persian army at the time of Heraclius was also over 100,000 and the Arab army of the second Arab siege of Constantinople was way over 100,000, this is confirmed by both Arab and Byzantine sources, only 80,000 Arab cavalry escaped. The 1st crusade numbered 135,000 crusaders when it crossed the Bosporus. The population of Antiquity was bigger than in the Middle Ages (the Justiniac plague caused a serious reduction in world population) and so where the armies, something that Leo the Wise accepts in his book Tactics. Ancient states could also be as organised or better organised than later states. For his campaign in Greece Xerxes had built five major food depots in the north coast of the Aegean in which food over several years had been gathered to feed his army and had 3,000 transport ships bringing supplies.

The Romans never really faced major armies and thus did not need to form major armies at once. The did have though some 40 standing legions and thus 400,000 soldiers. The Germans that were menacing Gaul in the 3rd century were some 7,000-strong, obviously they did not need a large army to face them, just better leadership. In the battle of Cannes they faced the biggest army they ever encountered, thus they raised the biggest army they ever had to. In the campaigns they had in Greece they never had to face more than 40,000 Greeks, plus they had Greek allies on their side.

To return to the Persian army in Xerxes' invasion according to the critical school the Persian sent 200,000 land troops of which 60,000-120,000 were combat troops (a very ridiculus proposition IMO considering the Greeks raised 38,400 hoplites and a total of 110,000 troops at Plataea, if there were so few Persians why did they not face them at the border of Macedon, where they could also enjoy the support of Macedonian and Thessalian cavalry, instead of having them conquer and raze their cities?). Why would Darius raise a smaller army than that sent by Xerxes over a century earlier, especially so near his base of ops? In any case it is recongnise by everyone the superiority of the armaments of the Greeks could only be faced by an inferiorly armed army through superiority on numbers.

Even if you disagree with ancient sources do not remove them from the text, I will keep on reverting it back. Write why you believe it was not that high but there is no reason Arrian's, Diodorus' or Curtius Rufus numbers should not be on the main text. After all according to WP:TPA a great article:

• acknowledges and explores all aspects of the subject; i.e., it covers every encyclopedic angle of the subject.
• is well-documented; all facts are cited from reputable sources, preferably sources that are accessible and up-to-date.

I would really love to read a summary of how you (or better yet those who you copy) come up with these low numbers. Please do not do the lazy thing and revert the page, write where these numbers derive from after having them listed. I will add references of historians that accept ancient numbers tommorow, do add historians that accept your numbers (and better yet how they come up with them).Ikokki 00:46, 5 October 2006 (UTC)

Encyclopaedia Iranic clearly states that the ancient figures are worthless [7] (by the way, for those that dont know, Encyclopaedia Iranica is a work being carried out by Cambridge University and is considered to be the highest authority regarding Iranian history). I put unknown in, this way, everyone is happy. Its a good compromise.Khosrow II 23:53, 12 October 2006 (UTC)

Unlike say chemistry where there is an absolute source book called "Standard Methods" (which gets revised every few years) which tells you the proper way say to measure say calcium in a sample, in humanities there is no absolute source. I already mention 4 sources that claim that ancient numbers are right, the history of the Greek Nation was composed by the greatest academics (albeit thirty years ago), considering it included military and Persia specialists, there is no reason it should be less reliable Encyclopaedia Iranica.

Don't remove ancient sources. It will only get you in trouble with the editors. You might not like them but, in the name on neutrality, Wikipedia inlcudes pretty strange stuff. See for example New Chronology (Fomenko) Ikokki 13:34, 14 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Authoritative Sources

Would be modern historians of the caliber of Fox, Green, Bosworth etc, not Lendering. Wikipedia's guidelines say this about reliable sources:

"In general, the most reliable sources are books and journals published by university presses; mainstream newspapers; and magazines and journals published by known publishing houses. As a rule of thumb, the more people engaged in checking facts, analysing legal issues, and scrutinizing the writing, the more reliable the publication. Material that is self-published, whether on paper or online, is generally not regarded as reliable"[8]

"Anyone can create a website or pay to have a book published, then claim to be an expert in a certain field. For that reason, self-published books, personal websites, and blogs are largely not acceptable as sources.

Self-published material may be acceptable when produced by a well-known, professional researcher in a relevant field or a well-known professional journalist. These may be acceptable so long as their work has been previously published by reliable third-party publications. However, exercise caution: if the information in question is really worth reporting, someone else is likely to have done so."''[9]

Look that Lendering awnsers perfectly WP:RS: she is a respected Dutch scholar, and the piece in question compares also in the biography of Alexander she pubblished. This I know by the BMCR, a scholarly journal that reviws the book and mentions exactly this passage.--Aldux 01:38, 5 November 2006 (UTC)

The review of Lendering can be found here. I haven't been following this dispute closely but I agree with Aldux: Lendering meets WP:RS. (note that Lendering is male, however.) --Akhilleus (talk) 01:49, 5 November 2006 (UTC)

Thank you for the link. I accept that Lendering's mention in the BMCR, which I was not aware of, probably does make him meet WP:RS. However I am still not comfortable with the way that his theory about Darius's breaking features more prominently in this article than the more commonly held view of him instigating the flight of the whole army, which is supported by Arrian, Plutarch. I propose that this section is reworked to reflect that Lendering's opinion is in the minority. --Trolip (talk)

I have provided a quote from Arrian to create more balance in this section and have removed the comment about Diodorus agreeing, since his account of the battle is entirely different from the one in this article and is also different from Lendering's argument. Diodorus, like Arrian, says that the flight became general after Darius fled (17.60), which is different from Lendering's claim. I hope this is a fair compromise.--Trolip 02:57, 5 November 2006 (UTC)