Talk:Barebacking

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Contents 1 Neutrality No Longer in Dispute? 2 Bug-chasing 3 Disputed 4 Disputed 2 5 Accuracy of origin claim 6 Hetero Reference in pop culture 7 Major rewrite and request for discussion 8 Disputed 3 9 Merge Proposal

[edit] Neutrality No Longer in Dispute?

Based on reading the discussion below, I think the neutrality concerns have been addressed (i.e., the language of the article is balanced and addresses the various points of view about what barebacking means). People seem to still have problems with lack of citations and maybe the quality, but I think as written it is neutral (a separate issue from sourcing and quality).

Considering the many people who have deemed it neutral, I'm going to remove that flag. If someone objects, can you very specifically explain what is objectionable in terms of NEUTRALITY? Thanks. Aroundthewayboy 20:03, 31 May 2006 (UTC)

There are way too many "some people believe" and "others claim that" sentences in here. There was also an entire report regarding AOL ads that lacked references or citations. I placed a "weasel word" flag on here and edited some of the language because, yet again, we have obvious agendas being furthered in this article. --Julien Deveraux 23:26, 1 June 2006 (UTC)

Hm, ok, fair enough. I agree that the article needs more citations/sources. Aroundthewayboy 20:45, 7 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Bug-chasing

"A small minority subculture of gay men has gone further, in fetishizing HIV infection itself, and deliberately taking part in barebacking as a way to get infected: this so-called bugchasing behavior is even more controversial."

Hello, rather new to wikipedia. Does anyone have substantial reason to take this at face value? As far as I know this is merely an urban rumor and, while I don't think such a fetish impossible, I wonder its validity.

Hi, welcome to Wikipedia.

There's substantial discussion of that topic, as well as the controversy over whether or not the phenomenon actually exists, over at the article bugchasing. - jredmond 21:24, 13 Jun 2005 (UTC)

The phenomenon really does exist, though my evidence is rather anecdotal; as there are lists online for people into this behavior and an episode of Queer as Folk dealt with the topic..so..who knows. I did, however, remove the reference to this in the article because I felt it was irrelevant since there is no article called "bugchasing". Also, there were too many references to all the negative connotations surrounding this behavior and a lack of information about how the word is now used in straight porn to mean just what the phrase is supposed to mean..fucking without a condom. --Julien Deveraux 8 July 2005 08:59 (UTC)

…but there is an article called "bugchasing", and since bugchasing is intimately connected with barebacking I think the link is exceptionally relevant. - jredmond 8 July 2005 14:16 (UTC)

My apologies, I did not see that. Thanks jdremdomn

[edit] Disputed

The disputed template was added to this article. Would someone like to characterize the dispute and discuss it so we can work towards removing it? SchmuckyTheCat 00:22, 5 August 2005 (UTC)

--The dispute appears to be the bugchasing topic above. KeoniPhoenix 12:49, 6 August 2005 (UTC)

Judging from the history, it looks more like it's there for an ongoing dispute about whether the term is used outside the gay community to refer to unprotected oral sex. We'd have to ask ExplodingBoy to be certain, though. - jredmond 22:22, 9 August 2005 (UTC)

Yes, sorry, I've been away for a few days. This page has been listed on RFC and the LGBT notice board with almost no response, but I dispute the definitions being given. Exploding Boy 23:25, August 9, 2005 (UTC)

• The definition that it includes hetero sex? That's just plain wacky then. https://www.google.com/search?hl=en&lr=&safe=off&as_qdr=all&q=%22++hetero+barebacking%22 SchmuckyTheCat 00:56, 10 August 2005 (UTC)

If you're not following the discussion, please don't get involved so heavy handedly. I'll remove my own dispute message when I feel the dispute is over, which it's not. Exploding Boy 23:47, August 10, 2005 (UTC)

I'm still looking for what the dispute even is. Can you provide? SchmuckyTheCat 00:38, 11 August 2005 (UTC)

is there a reason the dispute isn't being conducted on this talk page? I thought that's generally how it worked...i'll echo the question, what is the dispute?

I've discussed the reason for this dispute many times, and Shmucky is well aware of what it is. It's also been listed for comment in several places. For the last timeL: the definition given is incorrect. Exploding Boy 22:50, August 17, 2005 (UTC)

• incorrect? [1] It's you against the world then. The article states it originated as gay slang, which may or may not be true, it is obvious people (you) think of it as gay slang. However, it is not exclusively gay slang and to insist on a definition that is exclusive is... wrong. There's nothing here except presenting all sides. SchmuckyTheCat 23:05, 17 August 2005 (UTC)

I really don't want to jump in on this, but an SMS lingo translator is probably the definition of a Dubious Source. In all honestly, I came here from the premature RFC, but I believe Exploding Boy is right, and am looking to be refuted by a source of quality.Hipocrite 15:29, 18 August 2005 (UTC)

• "So it's not the least bit irrational for sexually active breeders to take fewer and/or different precautions, ET, and that's what makes hetero barebacking not quite as newsworthy as the homo variety, which is very irrational." -- Dan Savage [2]
• "Bareback (noun, verb) A slang term for having sexual intercourse without using a condom. Jack slammed into Jill's pussy bareback." [3] Note the reference to a vagina? Not-gay, not-anal.
• And, I would think a lingo translator, as a measure of "is the term in real world use as lingo as described this way" is a pretty fine source. It's modern street lingo, not Shakespheare.
• "bbbj" Just the fact that the term exists, ie, blow job is not anal sex.

The Savage thing fails on it's face. The encyclopedia of sex article solves my concern. The ringtone site can be added to by anyone, but cannot be reverted or changed, so I don't consider it encyclopedia. For instance, it would take all of 10 seconds for bbbj to also refer to "the user Hipocrite, on Wikipedia." Thanks for your prompt response, consider my concerns addressed. Please include the eos cite into the cite needed, or delete, as you choose.Hipocrite 16:10, 18 August 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Disputed 2

The question to RFC:

Talk:Bareback and Talk:Barebacking -- an ongoing dispute about the specific meaning of the term: does it refer primarily to unprotected anal sex among gay men, or can it refer to any type of unprotected intercourse among people of any gender? 21:10, August 2, 2005 (UTC)

The article:

Barebacking is a term that originated in gay slang for anal sex without the use of a condom. Though it largely retains its original meaning, the term has recently "crossed over" outside the gay community to simply mean any type of penetrative intercourse (anal, oral, or vaginal) without the use of a condom.

Now, I came here from RfC and took a look. I see an insistence that it only refers to gay sex as patently ridiculous. Any lookup of the term on the web gives you non-gay and non-anal references. Is the term bareback used for non-gay and non-anal sex? Yes, obviously, and without dispute. So are the first two lines in the article correct? Yes. Are they controversial or argumentive? No. Are there people in the world who still use it only one way? Sure, but I'm sure plenty of male Johns who hire pros only think of it another way. The way the article presents it is neutral. SchmuckyTheCat 23:14, 17 August 2005 (UTC)

Google is not gospel, but if it were, well in the first 7 pages of results all the pages define barebacking as unprotected anal sex between men, including several health authorities (see Canadian Health Network) and AIDS organizations. Exploding Boy 01:00, August 18, 2005 (UTC)

I still have a problem with this usage, and I'm not at all convinced that the sources provided are reliable or accurate, given that other sources contradict the definition(s) given. I will be changing the lead sentence to reflect that. Exploding Boy 17:16, August 18, 2005 (UTC)

I see a problem here. Google is generating links between gay and barebacking because barebacking is being discussed in the context of HIV amongst gay men. The epidemic was 'a gay plague', and in the context of government and health organisations, they will be be discussing the relevance of barebacking in terms of this population. From the UK i do not know whether HIV is still a predominantly gay issue in the US. I think that in the whole of the world, it is not, but medical care is frequently a developed world issue, and the rest of the world does not get studies done about what is going on. This does not answer your debate, but it gives reason why the terms gay and bareback may frequently be linked.Sandpiper 18:36, 21 August 2005 (UTC)

I have personally used this term to refer to unprotected hetereosexual sex, and know many others that do so. Urban Dictionary is a frequently referred to site on modern slang, and they list both definitions with 50+ votes in support of the gay only definition, but also a number of supporters for varying definitions that omit gender. Like so much slang, its usage has clearly expanded. Even if the article continues to focus primarily on gay unprotected sex, there needs to be mention of its crossover into the wider community. Kit 02:07, 13 October 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Accuracy of origin claim

Personally, I'd never heard the term "bareback" mean anything but gay anal sex, but it seems clear that the other meaning, having sex without a condom in general, is also common enough to be notable. What's not clear is that we've assembled any evidence that the gay meaning came first. Perhaps someone with access to the OED or similarly comprehensive dictionary could look it up. Or perhaps there is another authoritative source which could be located. -- Beland 06:17, 28 August 2005 (UTC)

• Authoritative source regarding slang? Usage would vary from culture to country. I think it's clear the term can have multiple meanings, and it should be so stated. I would be hesitant to describe it as having origins in the gay community without a credible source.--inks 04:09, 30 August 2005 (UTC)

Youll find bareback originates from riding a horse without a saddle (unprotected). An obvious cross reference to sex can be made, i.e sex with a person without protection. --PrincessBrat 10:51, 28 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Hetero Reference in pop culture

In the episode Carrier on Law & Order, an HIV infected man who deliberately infects women says to one "It's better bareback." SchmuckyTheCat 20:11, 13 October 2005 (UTC)

That's the reference I was going to add. I guess we both saw it on TNT earlier this week. The episode originally aired on April 1, 1998. Autiger 02:00, 14 October 2005 (UTC)

• Yah, Tivo. SchmuckyTheCat 02:29, 14 October 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Major rewrite and request for discussion

In my view, there are four different referents for barebacking: 1)The practice of casual unprotected sex amongst gay men 2)The practice of casual unprotected sex amongst straight people 3)A feature that prostitutes may use to sell themselves 4)The controversy surrounding these sexual practices. This article can have sections about each of these.

I think we should examine carefully all claims about what "Barebacking: the Sexual Practice" is responsible for, because many of these claims are related to that story's sequel, "Barebacking II: The Controversy."

Please edit my edits, add epidemiological information, and, especially, pay attention to what I wrote about straight people. I don't know a lot about straight people, so I need some help with that section.

--Defenestrate 20:35, 22 December 2005 (UTC)

Defenestrate, I have attempted to re-write many sections and re-portion the sections. Please feel free to give me feedback --Julien Deveraux 08:50, 6 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Disputed 3

This article has zero sources and consists almost entirely of dubious characterizations and facts. For example, the claim that protease inhibitors caused the gay community to have more unprotected sex. Seriously? No doubt my fears are baseless and all of this information comes from some peer reviewed study in the JOURNAL OF INTERNET RUMORS. savidan^{(talk) (e@)} 02:55, 25 May 2006 (UTC)

I agree Savidan, I think what we have here are certain know-it-alls who have theories that they are trying to "further" as fact. --Julien Deveraux 23:29, 1 June 2006 (UTC)

oh, come on. anybody who has been a gay adult since the early 90s knows that barebacking exploded only after the protease inhibitors made aids a so-called manageable disease. there have been countless articles about it, and yes i am too lazy to look it up. but it's not exactly a wild internet rumor.

i agree that this article needs more sources, though.

• This link should back up what you stated Aroundthewayboy - the second paragraph http://www.managingdesire.org/sexpanic/ProteaseDisInhibitors.html. --PrincessBrat 10:56, 28 August 2006 (UTC)

Aroundthewayboy 18:25, 8 June 2006 (UTC)

I wasn't trying to be a weasel by not citing certain sources but this is a topic that might be impossible to cite to an extent. "Everyone knows" to you and and me is a valid form of citation, but academically, I suppose it is not. The person who felt the need to require all these citations obviously doesn't live in our community and doesn't realize that people don't really WRITE about this topic. --Julien Deveraux 17:51, 13 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Merge Proposal

I strongly object to this merge proposal. Unprotected sex is a superset of barebacking. JBKramer 12:34, 21 September 2006 (UTC)

I disagree, i feel that having a barebacking and unprotected sex article is tantamount to having an article for unprotected anal sex, unprotected oral sex, unprotected vaginal sex, unprotected fellatio, unprotected rimming, unprotected cunilingus, etc. It should be an important compnant of the unprotected sex article, alltho i do believe that unprotected sex should be merged into barebacking, and then the name should be changed to unprotected sex, or perhaps a new name such as, sex without a barrier?Qrc2006 00:43, 22 September 2006 (UTC)

Comment: I also strongly disagree with the merger. Barebacking is a fetish and, in the age of AIDS, a social and psychological phenomenon. Barebackers are now a major subculture within the gay community. Go and have a look at bareback.com, barebackjack.com, bnskin.com, bugshare.net and the websites of bareback porn companies like Treasure Island Media, Cobra Video, Hot Desert Knights, SX Video, Tippo Sesso, Puppy Productions, and Eurocreme's Bare, Twinkz, Raw and Punkz studios to fully appreciate how barebacking and bareback sexual fantasies have totally exploded within the gay community. The Wikipedia article on barebacking conveys this.

In contrast, "unprotected sex" is an adjective and a noun. It absolutely and totally fails to convey the subculture of "barebackers" and the connotations of that word. If you merge the "barebacking" article into the "unprotected sex" article, you should merge the articles on "Christianity" into an article on "worship".

By way of analogy, Christians "worship", but self-identify as Christians and are part of the Christian movement.

In like manner, barebackers have "unprotected sex", but self-identify as barebackers and are part of the barebacking movement. [Anon User]

I also disagree with the merger proposal. This topic is significant enough for a separate article, and has more than enough content to justify having one. Owen 17:22, 21 October 2006 (UTC)