Talk:B'nai Mitzvah

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Contents 1 Boys/Girls 2 mix of terms 3 age and extent of tradition 4 convert 5 This article needs to be reorganized 6 Added Humanist section 7 Dhall... 8 Specious rationale 9 Criticism 10 Capitalization 11 pronunciation 12 Title of page 13 {{Torah portion}} 14 Why Bnai and not Bnei? 15 Pubic hair 16 "Son of the commandment"

This is because women were not considered obliged to obey the same laws as men;

Nu? What were these differences that were so big that when a girl attained her majority she had no obligations worthy of notice? Were women just supposed to obey some man? --Ed Poor

In ancient Jewish society, women's first duties were to their family, and second to the religion. They were required to obey the negative commandments (the don'ts), but not the the positive requirements (attend to this, perform this ritual, etc). In addition to this, there's a prohibition against "ritual uncleanliness", which is whenever blood is flowing freely from someone, whether from a cut or from menstration. Women, for this reason, find it extremely difficult to participate in Jewish religious life, which is the civic center of ancient societies. In other words, yes.—Daelin 12:30, 23 Oct 2004 (UTC)

Rubbish. Women are bound to all commandments apart from the time-bound positive ones (e.g. shaking of the Lulav/Four Species on Sukkot). Apart from that, there are a couple typically female commandments, which no male can fullfil. I find Daelin's views a simplification. JFW | T@lk 20:16, 23 Oct 2004 (UTC)

Keyword: "are". I was speaking of Judiasm circa 400 BC, as I noted by starting off with "In ancient Jewish society," and the past tense (which I goofed in the middle).—Daelin 23:54, 23 Oct 2004 (UTC)

Makes no difference. What's your evidence that they were not previously bound to the commandments? JFW | T@lk 06:49, 24 Oct 2004 (UTC)

My source is a course in the History of Women in Western Civilization, taught by a history professor who is highly respected at my college. I have just e-mailed them asking for specific sources. I'll let you know what I find out. I expect a reply within the week.—Daelin 08:38, 24 Oct 2004 (UTC)

Good, thank you. JFW | T@lk 09:17, 24 Oct 2004 (UTC)

I think some of this info is inaccurate. (I speak from an Orthodox perspective, recognizing that others disagree but hoping that we can sort this out in a mutually agreeable fashion in this forum.) Women are obligated in all commandments except those that are time-bound - and even there, (a) there are many exceptions and (b) women are [permitted] to fulfill those commandments (and, in Ashkenazic tradition, even recite the blessing associated with those commandments).

The difference may result from the fact that women are not allowed to read from the Torah or lead prayer services. This is the result of two factors - the Talmud's dictum that the (singing) voice of a woman is sexually suggestive (and thus should not be heard by men) and the more general idea of modesty that limits when it is appropriate for a woman to get up in front of a male audience. I'm not sure what is meant by "Some believe that a woman's voice distracts men from fulfilling their obligation in a pious spirit." but it may be related to my point. AviGilChaitovsky 17:42, 9 Jan 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Boys/Girls

Given that traditionally the Bar Mitzva involved more of a concrete ceremony than the Bat Mitzva, is it strange that this article has more about girls than boys? chaitov 14:43, 15 Feb 2005 (UTC)

I would say yes, but probably you already suggest this answer in your question ;-) gidonb 14:51, 15 Feb 2005 (UTC) This is, however, just like rest of Wikipedia: The quantity of materials is positively associated with the intensity of controversies. gidonb 15:11, 9 Apr 2005 (UTC)

[edit] mix of terms

it talks about "Mitzvah", and then switches to "Mitzvot" - is that a typo or intentional? "The collective term for Bar and Bat Mitzvot is B'nai Mitzvah." (80.109.255.5 20:41, 29 Apr 2005 (UTC))

[edit] age and extent of tradition

This radio piece which I just heard makes the claim that the biblical age of adulthood is 20, not 13, and that what we think of as the bar mitzvah tradition is an American invention (though, they didn't say what were the traditions before that) http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=4655222

I never heard this radio piece, and radio is hardly a stellar source, but there is more then one majority age. 12 or 13 is for the commandments. 20 makes someone eligable for the death penalty. 67.165.96.26 22:21, 2 January 2006 (UTC)

20 is also the age at which someone was eligible for military service, hence the fact that census data usually give only the numbers of men 20 years and older.

[edit] convert

the difference between young jews and converts in b'nai mitzvah should be included

There isn't one. Someone can not convert until they reach the age of majority. If a child was converted by his parents then he has a normal bar mitzvah just like anyone else. (Unless he chooses to reject his conversion, which is his right, upon reaching majority, in which case he is no longer jewish, so there is no bar mitzvah.) 67.165.96.26 22:29, 2 January 2006 (UTC)

[edit] This article needs to be reorganized

Currently, the description of the B'nai Mitzvah celebration is in the boys section (i.e. what is usually done during the celebration, reading the Torah, Haftora, etc.), while the "confusion" over terminology is under the girls section. This is common to both Bar and Bat Mitzvot, so I think those parts should be removed, and perhaps the Boys and Girls section could just be separated into one section that discusses gender issues in Bar/Bat Mitzvot. Also, I take issue with the claim that it is incorrect to use the term "Bar Mitzvah" or "Bat Mitzvah" as the name of the event. Sorry, that's extremely common usage of the term, more common than its correct term, and it's a pain to constantly have to refer to the "Bar Mitzvah celebration" as the event. Personally, I'd welcome someone with a background in Jewish Gender studies to elaborate a bit more on when the Bat Mitzvah celebration came about. And, even if a Jew automatically joins the adult Jewish community based on age, I think there's not enough emphasis put on the high place the ceremony holds in the mind of most observant/practicing Jews. I added the sentence about older women performing the ceremony and I think my sentence is a bit weak, but it really is important to note that women were commonly blocked from performing the ceremony until around 20 years ago, or less. The reclaiming of this ritual should be addressed, that's all I'm saying. FunnyYetTasty 09:00, 12 October 2005 (UTC)

Ok, but you have a fundamental mistake. There IS NO RITUAL, so there is nothing to block women from. You can do anything at all that you want. Bar Mitzvah is automatic upon reaching the age. The only "ritual" that there is, is not even a ritual. The child will lead the prayers or read from the torah to show that now he is an adult and is alowed to do so (or to prove that he knows how). It's not a ritual, it's exactly the same thing that any adult will do. The only thing special is that it's the childs first time. As far as women go there is no specific thing that adult women do publically, so there is no specific thing for a Bat Mitvah to do either. However depending on the comunity adult women might do this or that (teach a class for example) so a Bat Mitzvah will do the same. In some places women will even read from the torah in front or men, so the child will do the same. Why people think that women have to be EXACTLY like men I will never understand. Even if there is something "better" about how women do something, no that's not good - lets do it like the men, it might be "worse" but it's how the men do it, so we need to copy it. Take some pride in your gender! 67.165.96.26 22:39, 2 January 2006 (UTC)

"I think there's not enough emphasis put on the high place the ceremony holds in the mind of most observant/practicing Jews." Actually, the ceremony (and associated celebration) have less of a hold on the folk you mentioned. Parents who turn it into a 3-ring circus with CNN coverage are hardly interested in the religious aspects of the thing.B00P 09:56, 22 January 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Added Humanist section

Added a section on what humanist jews do. Someone should also note the tradition of the second bar mitzvah - at age 83?

With regard to bat mitzvah, it has been a tradition in Reform Judaism for at least 30 years (personal experience). There was one Orthodox rabbi who's daughters had the ceremony - this is what started the trend in Orthodoxy, but I don't remember his name.

From a sociological perspective, females have a biological life event that marks their passage into adulthood. Males do not (or at least, not one they are going to tell their mother about). FiveRings 01:09, 2 January 2006 (UTC) (date will be wrong)

[edit] Dhall...

Your recent additions are entirely from an Orthodox viewpoint, and do not consider either Wikipedia style (G-d, for example) or the conventions of this page ("Bar Mitzvah" versus "Bar Mitzvah celebration". They also need references. Please re-edit. FiveRings 01:09, 2 January 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Specious rationale

I have removed a parenthetical phrase that purports to explain why most Orthodox do not have girls lead the service.

"(because her singing voice may not be heard by males)"

Gimme a break. That is most assuredly not the reason and would fly in the face of Exodus 15:20-21 and Judges 5:2-31.

There is no baleful consequence deriving from hearing a female voice (assuming it's on key).

Many religious customs (in all religions) may appear to be arbitrary, but it is not necessary to invent fantastic "reasons" to explain them. Modern synagogue practice ultimately derives from how things were done in the Second Temple. Back then, various conditions could make a person temporarily (or, rarely, permanently) "ritually unclean" and thus unable to participate. One such temporary condition would occur when a woman was menstruating. Over the years this became expanded to the point where a woman did not lead a service whether having her period or not. However there is no biblical injunction on this point. (Jews grant no validity to Timothy 2:11-12.) Nowadays a girl whose period coincided with her Bat Mitzvah ceremony could merely reschedule the latter.

Synagogues are run on Congregationalist, not Episcopal, lines. If the rules of Synagogue A are not to one's liking, try Synagogue B down the street.B00P 09:33, 22 January 2006 (UTC)

Ritual cleanliness has absolutely nothing to do with it. There is the issue of kavod ha-tzibur, on the grounds of which women do not participate actively in most synagogue rituals. There is a law banning men listening to a woman's singing voice. Talmud Berachot, cited by Orach Chayim, forbids kol isha and equates it with watching a woman who is inappropriately attired. It is not limited to the synagogue. JFW | T@lk 10:47, 22 January 2006 (UTC)

B00P: Just because you want to pick and choose what laws you want to follow, doesn't also mean the rules don't exist.

And as a side note, in the time of the temples there was NOTHING AT ALL done for either a Bar, or Bat Miztvah! And there wasn't even a service to lead in those days either! (At least by a layperson, and even a Kohen had to be 20.) So you should be the one to stop inventing reasons for things. 67.165.96.26 19:19, 22 January 2006 (UTC)

My dear 67, you are reading things into what I wrote that aren't there. Not only didn't I mention B'nai Mitzvot, I said nothing about leading anything, The word I used was "participate." Anyone in a state of ritual uncleanliness would not be allowed into the Temple at all until the condition had been removed. How this resulted in a personal attack on me is, shall we say, a bit bizarre.

As for JFW, you will note tht I confined myself to mentioning biblical passages. And as a follow-up, I suggest that neither Moses nor Barak were any the worse for the experience. It would also follow that under your reading, men should never listen to the radio, watch television, see a show, or even go to services if women are present and joining in on the sung prayers. It is clear that you and I have very different perspectives on some very fundamental issues. So before this degenerates into posturing and name-calling, I will merely state that I find your views excessive and not in line with what I was taught. I wish you (and 67) well.B00P 07:27, 23 January 2006 (UTC)

You are simply unfamiliar with the way Orthodox/Haredi Judaism looks at the issue. Forget what you've been taught, there is always time to learn. Barak was (according to the Oral Law) Deborah's husband, so the issue does not arise. Moses was Miriam's brother, and provided he was close enough to listen it was his sister. Haredi Jews indeed no not watch TV, many avoid the radio and few go to see shows. Really, see Haredi Judaism. JFW | T@lk 08:11, 23 January 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Criticism

I support the new "criticism" paragraph, but it needs WP:CITE. I can produce references from Rav Shimon Schwab's "Collected Writings", but there may be a more generic source from rabbinic panels etc. JFW | T@lk 11:33, 3 February 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Capitalization

Is it proper to capitalize Bar/Bat/B'nai/B'not Mitzvah? It's capitalized in the article, and I'm pretty sure that's correct, but it would be nice to know if there's any sort of authoritative source on the matter, as I've seen it both ways, as well as a few that capitalize the word Mitzvah but not Bar/Bat/B'nai/B'not.

24.143.140.104 19:41, 28 February 2006 (UTC)

[edit] pronunciation

How to pronounce? I think this is [בְּנֵי־מִצְוָה bənēy mitzwāh]. richtik? --Sheynhertz_געשׁ״ך 12:35, 15 March 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Title of page

Why is this page titled "B'nai Mitzvah" if "Bar Mitzvah" is used throughout? I propose it be moved to Bar Mitzvah because someone was obviously just trying to make a point when thney moved the page here. → J@red  23:15, 29 April 2006 (UTC)

I understand your point, and sympathise to a great degree - it does seem odd to put this article under a title which is not used (at least in my neck of the woods) nearly as much as Bar/Bat Mizvah. However, it does make sense to deal with Bar Mizvah and Bat Mitzvah in the same article, so putting it under B'nai Mitzvah does seem like a good way of achieving that. Since both Bar Mitvah and Bat Mitzvah redirect here, I don't think it's a problem (although could still cause a little confusion). Nomist 15:33, 30 April 2006 (UTC)

Yeah, but so then why is the page under the plural form? No other pages in the Wikipedia database are allowed to be put into plural because it just wouldn't make sense, so why should this one? → J@red  16:41, 30 April 2006 (UTC)

I think they are vastly different in many respect and deserve their own pages under their own names. Apart from in very egalitarian communities, nowhere is there a fuss about the girls reading from the Torah, learning to put on tefillin etc. JFW | T@lk 19:41, 30 April 2006 (UTC)

Yes, from a non-egal perspective it must jar a bit to see Bar and Bat all lumped together as if they are equivalent. I happen to think that Bar and Bat ought to be equivalent, but it's not NPOV to lump them together in this way. I'm happy to split the article into two. Nomist 12:24, 1 May 2006 (UTC)

Split. Definitely. Bar and Bat Mitswa are quite special topics. gidonb 13:30, 1 May 2006 (UTC)

Split.—msh210℠ 19:06, 2 July 2006 (UTC)

I agree, it's time to split the articles, it was some time back when someone was trying to push an "egalitarian" POV. IZAK 08:16, 4 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] {{Torah portion}}

What is {{Torah portion}} doing on this page? Completelt irrelevant.—msh210℠ 19:06, 2 July 2006 (UTC)

• Hi msh: (1) The high-point of any B'nai Mitzvah religious "right of passage" celebration to Jewish adulthood is for the child to study to chant sections of, or the entire, Torah reading from that week's Parsha (Torah portion) read in synagogue on the Shabbat closest to their 13th birthday. Indeed, the date and time of one's Bar Mitzvah celebration on Shabbat is always derived from the weekly Torah portion (Parsha) on which the Bar Mitzvah will be celebrated. Question: "When is/was your Bar Mitzvah?" Answer: "On parshas XYZ!" (2) The template {{Torah portion}} is at the bottom of the B'nai Mitzvah article's page, so essentially it's part of the "See also" section which is a legitimate way of connecting related and connected topics on an article. (3) If a reader finds the {{Torah portion}} to be "too intrusive" then any reader is free to click "Hide" on the top right section of the template's heading which shrinks it to an unobtrusive one liner. Finally, (4) the {{Torah portion}} is presently diligently updated weekly by User:Dauster early each Sunday so that any readers may learn more about the weekly Parsha. User:Dauster summarizes each week's Parsha and adds some interesting graphics which surely adds life and color to a page that may gain the attention of readers who don't know much about this subject and may want to learn more. Please refer all further comments and discussions to one centralized location at Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Judaism#Template: Torah portion Thank you. IZAK 08:12, 4 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Why Bnai and not Bnei?

Bnei, with an E vowel, is the possessive (or is it genitive? :) plural form of Ben (son). Why does it appear with an A here? In modern Hebrew it is definitely with an E. It doesn't even seem to me like a Hasidic pronunciation, but, it appears more common on the web with A than E, so maybe it is?

Looking at another term, "Bnei Yisrael", the E variant wins (Google: E[[1]] vs. A [[2]]. Though, looking for "Bnei Israel" vs "Bnai Israel", the A wins (but not by such a large margin...) Anyway, a mystery to me.

ehudshapira 23:38, 10 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Pubic hair

This is a little-known but 100% true commandment in Judaism - a boy or girl must have at least two pubic hairs before they can officially become Bar (or Bat) Mitzvah. As ridiculous as this sounds, this is absolutley true - ask a Rabbi.

Anyway, as this is actually a law that MUST be met before a boy or girl can hallachacly come of age, I think it is pretty necessary to be included in the article - I will leave it up to a more experienced wikier than I to add the information in, in an appropriate place in the article.--GurTheFred 10:08, 22 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] "Son of the commandment"

I have replaced this very literal translation with a more meaningful translation which preserves the meaning of the untranslatable Hebrew idiom "bar-" / "ben-". For example, "ben adam" means "a person;" i.e. someone in the category of adam, and "bnei bakar" means "cattle," i.e. things in the category of bakar. --Eliyak T·C 14:38, 22 September 2006 (UTC)

I thought the name was aramaic, not hebrew? FiveRings 16:16, 22 September 2006 (UTC)

That is true. In Aramaic, "bar" has the same meaning and function as "ben" does in Hebrew. Example: "bar katala" - "one to whom the death penalty applies." --Eliyak T·C 19:58, 25 September 2006 (UTC)