Talk:Anthropomorphism

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Contents 1 Religion and Myths section in bad shape 2 Older edits 3 Anthropomorphism in literature 4 "Dog dressed in human accessories for humorous effect" 5 Anthropomorphism vs. Theomorphism 6 "In literature" and "Modern occurences" overlap 7 The Anthropomorphic Cabinet 8 Do you think stuff like "Transformers" or "Cars" should be anthropomorphic? 9 See also 10 Anthropomorphism or animism? 11 That picture isn't very good 12 Animal Rights

[edit] Religion and Myths section in bad shape

The Religion and Myths section (or whatever it's called) is so POV that it's almost unreadable, regardless of the fact that I happen largely to agree with the POV. It could only be worse if some rabid atheist re-edits it as an anti-religion screed. Someone who can take a neutral POV without giving into either God-hating cynicism or overt proselytizing ought to rewrite it.

I see what you mean, perhaps a good suggestion would be to truncate it by mentioning that there is an extensive list of examples in religion, and linking to a new page, "Anthropomorphism in religion" or something like that.71.32.193.22204:17, 6 January 2006 (UTC)

I agree. Actually the discussion of Religions and Myths doesn't even belong here. It is intrinsically atheist because of the idea of "attribution" of human qualities to the gods, as opposed to "recognition" or "perception" of the same. It presupposes a world-view.

I don't think this section is extensive enough to warrant its own article. Maybe if it were further expanded... Anyhow, the comment you just replied to has been there for quite some time and (IMO) the section has improved a lot since then. Of course, it's not really NPOV yet, but feel free to go there and fix it! :) - Ekevu (talk) 13:16, 6 January 2006 (UTC)

As we say in the text based online role playing world: "*does this* *did this* *it is done*." Cernen Xanthine Katrena 01:34, 12 January 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Older edits

What of animals and were thusly equivalent to misogyny and should be banned/changed/considered bad by society. But don't quote me on that, I can't remember where or when I saw it... PMC 00:17, 20 Oct 2004 (UTC)

what are you talking about

no comprende

Maybe some linkage would help >:-) --Ihope127 8 July 2005 19:29 (UTC) (That emoticon looks *much* cuter in monospace.)

[edit] Anthropomorphism in literature

A list of books in which animals represent humans might be interesting. For starters:

• In the Narnia books by C. S. Lewis the character Aslan.
• Animal Farm by George Orwell
• The Island of Dr Moreau

(Put here to start it off - and as there is a request to tidy the page up.)

Jackiespeel 21:29, 13 October 2005 (UTC)

I would suggest that we not do this. Firstly, I don't see what value it has. I could name probably about 20 examples of anthropomorphism on my own as could many others, I am sure. Secondly, if this is going to go forward, it should probably be put it its own article as it could quite quickly become quite long. Theshibboleth 09:34, 27 November 2005 (UTC)

I also have issues with this, even if we made it it's own page it would quickly grow and become hard to mantain. In such cases we might start getting original research that's masquraded as fact. Deathawk 05:06, 19 December 2005 (UTC)

So just because some people are going to come on here and change stuff and you won't be able to control it, you think the extra info should not be included? Doesn't that go against the spirit of this site? Censorship for fear of false information? Kind of stupid if you ask me. There is tons of OP masquraded as fact already! Just because it is hard to maintain does not mean it should not be included. People will find ways to fix it up sooner or later. Animal Farm definitely needs to be in this list, it's a very important piece of literature. Chewbacca1010 02:02, 2 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] "Dog dressed in human accessories for humorous effect"

The image with caption "Dog dressed in human accessories for humorous effect", whilst indeed humourous is not an example of anthropomophism, and would be expected to be used more on Uncyclopedia than on Wikipedia. Consider removal. - User:Sb2k4.

I believe it is indeed an example of anthropomorphism, because the non-human being (dog) has been given human characteristics (clothing). that's how anthropomorphism is defined in the first sentence of the article, and I think the picture fits the definition perfectly.--kotra 10:22, 3 December 2005 (UTC)

Plus, the dog is cutesy and kind of silly looking. I'm going to change the caption to reflect a closer match to what the image is of as opposed to "dog dressed in human accessories for humorous effect." Also, I'm gonna go ahead and fix the POV issues re: the cleanup tag. Cernen Xanthine Katrena 09:54, 11 January 2006 (UTC)

---

On the other hand, while the dressed dog does fit the given definition, this kind of practice is not usually labeled as antropomorphism. Not only that, but clothes and acessories aren't really human characteristics (as in human nature), but human preferences, or even human commonsense. People don't feel a dressed dog is closer to human beings: that's actually the very nature of the humor! People feel that a fictional character who is an animal who walks over two legs and talks in perfect English is more human than a fictional character who doesn't. One of the Narnia books (The Silver Chair) has a terrific example on this: some animals talk, other don't... It's usual and pretty much okay to eat one who doesn't talk, it's nauseating and ultimately unacceptable to eat one who does (myself, I thought that was an horrible example of racism).

So, to summarize, while I agree the dog does fit the definition, I don't see it as anthromorphism anyway, because the definition may be (and, in my opinion, it is) incomplete and/or unclear.

Of course, I'm saying that as someone interested in the area, so this may be just a reflection on my favorite sub-areas. ≈ Ekevu ^talk _contrib 14:04, 11 January 2006 (UTC)

I don't think that anthropomorphism requires people to feel the subject is closer to humans, the only requirement in my mind is that it is given some aspects or characteristics of human-ness. Clothes aren't human nature but they are only worn by humans (I think), so I consider them to be human characteristics. Yes it is common sense because we have no fur, but elephants and naked mole-rats don't have fur either, so it would make sense for them to wear clothes also, but they don't because of climate or resourcefulness.

But I kind of agree, a dog dressed in clothes isn't usually what we think of as anthropomorphism. Perhaps a picture of Asimo or Death would be good to replace it with. Two pictures of animals (anthro' or otherwise) are enough. (yeah I changed my mind about the picture, now I think maybe it should go) -kotra 07:34, 13 January 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Anthropomorphism vs. Theomorphism

From the article as of 13:37, 12 January 2006 (UTC):

It should be noted that from the perspective of believers of a religion where the diety or dieties have human characteristics, it may be more accurate to describe the phenomenon as theomorphism, or the giving of divine qualities to humans, instead of anthropomorphism, the giving of human qualities to the divine. The reason for this being that according to their beliefs, the diety or dieties usually existed before humans, and therefore humans were created in the form of the divine, not vice versa. However, for those who do not subscribe to the beliefs of the religion, the phenomenon can be considered anthropomorphism.

I don't get it. Shouldn't it be the inverse?

• For a believer, the god(s) precede(s) the humans. hence, the divine nature comes before the human nature. Then, god(s) create(s) men, and men try to understand god(s) making them look like humans, giving god(s) human attributes, hence, anthropomorphism.

• For a non-believe, god(s) do(es)n't exist. Hence, god(s) is/are invented as a copy from men that actually are gods... Hence, men who are given god attributes, hence, teomorphism.

What did I get wrong? ≈ Ekevu ^talk _contrib 13:37, 12 January 2006 (UTC)

I'm sorry for not explaining it very well.

• For a believer, the god(s) precede(s) the humans. Then, the humans were created (to quote from the Bible) "in the image of God". For those who believe their religion's teachings, the god(s) aren't "invented", if anything the humans are "invented". And since the humans are given the attributes of the god(s), it is theomorphism.
• For a non-believer, the god(s) still exist as an idea (although not as a real thing). A similar situation might be a toy. Humans create toys. Sometimes, humans create toys that look like people. They don't have to look like people, but sometimes they're made that way anyways. Therefore, humans are giving toys human qualities. The same is true for gods, according to a non-believer. To a non-believer, humans create gods, and sometimes they make them look like humans (although not always). That would be giving the gods human qualities, or anthropomorphism.

I didn't quite inderstand what you meant by "men that are actually gods", but I hope I've cleared up my side for you... theology confuses the crap out of me so I know how it is. If someone has a clearer way of writing the paragraph quoted above, that would be very helpful. kotra 06:58, 13 January 2006 (UTC)

[edit] "In literature" and "Modern occurences" overlap

Modern Occurrences is very long. It reads more like a list than a explanation, especially on the subject of animals as examples of anthropomorphism. While I was adding The Endless to it, in an attempt to balance the list, I realized it was already mentioned in the section "In literature". Then I realized that some of the "Modern occurences" examples were, in fact, literature. In which place do they belong? Why is there a "Modern occurences" section at all? Wouldn't it be simpler to divide "Modern Occurences" into the existing "In literature", and a new "In entertainment" or "In films" and "In television" section?

If for some reason we should keep the "Modern occurences" section, perhaps the modern examples in the "In literature" section could be moved to "Modern occurences".

Either way (or perhaps a third way I haven't thought of), something should be done to correct this overlap. My first instinct is to trim Modern occurences to a few short sentences with - at the most - 3 or 4 examples total, but I thought it should be discussed first. -kotra 02:57, 18 January 2006 (UTC)

I agree. The question that comes to mind is: What's the point of talking about "Modern occurences"? The answer that comes with it: To show how it's, in a way, current. But, apparently, while many good examples are aged, a good amount of them are relatively new as well, making that point somewhat redundant. Not only that, the term "modern" is ambiguous. Do we mean "modern" as in the last 50 years? Or 100? Or since the French Revolution? Or since the Middle Age ended? ≈ Ekevu ^talk _contrib 17:22, 18 January 2006 (UTC)

Maybe "Modern occurences" could be changed to "Recent developments" or something similar. That would discourage it developing into a list, but rather discussion of trends and aspects of anthropomorphism in modern times, like the furry fandom or the anthropomorphisation of robots. Then another section could be created called "In other media" (just after "In literature") where a selection of the examples given in "Modern occurences" would be moved. Thoughts? -kotra 04:45, 19 January 2006 (UTC)

[edit] The Anthropomorphic Cabinet

This is a wonderful work of art by Salvador Dali, and a beautiful example of anthropomorphism of an inanimate object. Any chance we could include a picture? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Bueller 007 (talk • contribs) .

I think permission from Dali's estate would be needed first. Coyoty 03:51, 27 March 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Do you think stuff like "Transformers" or "Cars" should be anthropomorphic?

From your definition an anthromorph is "applying human or animal qualities to inanimate objects" so a giant humanoid robots that can turn into cars can be considered anthromorphic? How about cars which have human personality? or dare i say " The Brave Little Toaster". Then mabe it could be added to this list or broken up into to camps, the animal and the mechanical?

i think this must be brought up. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 124.106.42.80 (talk • contribs) .

All of that is addressed in the article. It's all anthropomorphic. What list are you talking about? There's no list in the article to break up. Coyoty 17:58, 4 April 2006 (UTC)

I was talking about the article. It just slants too much with furry, It may confuse some readers, thinking anthropomorphics is strictly for furry(animals), which i think is not.

Maybe if we add more mechanical/(giving generaly non-living things human characteristic) examples, then the definition would make more sense.

Dont you think so?

I've seen examples of anthro with animal, plant, vehicle, planet, etc... Anthromorphism, defined is simply placing human traits to something. Being too specific would detract from the article's definition. Yes Transformers belongs, yes Brave Little Toaster belongs, I'd go as far as to say that R2D2 and C3PO belong on certain levels. --Ice 12:02, 5 April 2006 (UTC)

[edit] See also

Perhaps this guy can be included as an example of a succesful antropomorphist? (Read the third paragraph) --Nnp 19:48, 8 April 2006 (UTC)

I don't think he would be, because thinking a rock was his brother doesn't necessarily mean he was anthropomorphizing it. He might have realized the rock wasn't a human, but still considered it his brother for some reason. Or, he may have been making a metaphorical statement that "everything, even rocks are our brothers", taking it to an extreme. Or he might've just been faking, for all we know. I don't know what was going on in his mind but it doesn't necessarily have to be anthropomorphism. -kotra 09:14, 10 April 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Anthropomorphism or animism?

To the paragraph that states:

• This form of anthropomorphism is common in other technical fields as well. For example, a chemist might casually explain an ionic bond between sodium and chlorine by asserting that the sodium atom "wants" to merge with the chlorine atom. Desire is, of course, a human emotion that atoms are incapable of. (...)

I added a qualifying paragraph:

• However, such uses might better be described as animism, since the features falsly attributed to inanimate objects are those of sentient beings (animals) rather than just those of humans.

I also changed "Desire is (...) a human emotion..." to "Desire is (...) an emotion...".

That addition was reverted by Coyoty, with the explanation "rv non-neutral edits by Olivierd to last version by Nydas".

I have reverted it back.

If you want to assert that desire (and the other feelings those paragraphs mention) are uniquely human, and not felt by other animals, the burden of proof (or at least documentation and explanation) is on you. Descartes notwithstanding, it is certainly a minority opinion among humans today.

It would be much more logical to put many of the cases of "anthropomorphism" on a page about animism. Much would need to be rewritten in that sense on this page. For the moment, the simple qualifying paragraph I have added is the least that should be done. The wording may be a bit awkward and could be made better. But don't just delete it and make believe that the rampant Cartesianism that inspires those attributions of anthropomorphism are the mainstream opinion.

David Olivier 07:01, 27 April 2006 (UTC)

Sorry, but wiki policy is that the burden of proof is on the editor introducing the unsourced information. As I note in my revert, however, it is phrased in a way that looks like animal advocacy spin, which is not neutral. I'm all for animal equality, but articles need to be presented in a neutral voice, and not look like they're making a personal point. Coyoty 20:11, 27 April 2006 (UTC)

Look, if you believe that only humans have desires, it is up to YOU to prove it. That is an unsourced information, OK?

In what sense does it look like "animal advocacy spin"? Just plainly stating common sense is animal advocacy spin?

Please stop just deleting and answer some of that. David Olivier 22:51, 27 April 2006 (UTC)

Do not put beliefs in my head. I do not believe only humans have desires. This is an issue of neutral point of view, which is a Wikipedia policy. Articles must be written to avoid even the appearance of personal feelings, and your personal feelings are noticeable, and confirmed in your response here. It needs to be rewritten or removed. I will not violate Wikipedia's three-revert rule, so I will let an admin address this issue. Coyoty 00:53, 28 April 2006 (UTC)

Well, if you do not believe that only humans have desires, you will agree with me that it is not correct to state that "'Desire is, of course, a human emotion that atoms are incapable of.'", and to call it anthropomorphism.

You might say that the issue is not what we believe. But on that matter, almost everyone believes that at least some non-human animals have desires. So saying that attribution of desire to atoms is "anthropomorphism" rather than calling it "animism" amounts to asserting as a fact what is actually the opinion of a small number of people, those who believe that only humans have desires and so on. It is not my edit that is POV, it is the text as it was.

David Olivier 07:32, 28 April 2006 (UTC)

Animism is a term which has overtly religious connotations. I fail to see why it is a suitable alternative to anthropomorphism, which covers things like aesthetics and psychology as well.--Nydas 08:23, 28 April 2006 (UTC)

"Animism" might not be a perfect term, but it does describe the phenomenon correctly. "Anthropomorphism" doesn't. It smuggles in the assumption that the only sentient beings are human beings. To say that ascribing desire to atoms is anthropomorphism is to assume that only humans have desires. It is not part of common knowledge today that only humans have desires. To say the least. David Olivier 09:46, 7 May 2006 (UTC)

So there's not even a word for what you describe, and yet you think it's self-evidently the majority view.--Nydas 12:24, 7 May 2006 (UTC)

Since I was the one who originally wrote the atom/desire example, the burden of proof is actually on me. When I wrote it I commented that a better example was needed. I understood then that it isn't an entirely accurate example of anthropomorphism. However, it's not an accurate example of animism either. Animism is a serious religious/spiritual philosophy, and giving atoms emotions as a time-saving device (in the way I was describing, anyways) is not serious or spiritual in any way.

If you believe (as I do) that other animals also possess the emotion of desire, then you find yourself on a slippery slope, trying to draw an impossible line where other animals and humans are different. Even animals walking on two legs and speaking could be considered giving animals parrot (not human) traits, because they walk on two legs and speak as well. Anthropomorphism is used to describe giving non-humans traits we usually ascribe to humans. Even desire might fall into that category.

Having said that, I still agree that the atom/desire example isn't a great one. If someone thinks it's unhelpful or misleading they're welcome to remove it, although it would be good to replace it with a better example. -kotra 22:21, 7 May 2006 (UTC)

I think that the fact we have this tendency to ascribe feelings and intentions to inanimate objects is very noteworthy. It is just that it is not precisely anthropomorphism. The chemistry example you gave is a good one. There are many other examples in chemistry, such as speaking of hydrophilic/hydrophobic molecules.

The examples about computers are interesting too. With computers it seems to me we have a strong tendency towards real anthropomorphism. We program them to say "hello", or "sorry" when they deny us access because we have typed the wrong password. That really is mimicking humans, not animals in general.

I think that it is OK to leave the examples as they are, even if they are not all true anthropomorphism, with a qualifying remark such as the one I added.

The term "animism" seems OK to me. For instance, in the article one of the links on the page leads to, the term is used in a non-religious sense: "This is animism from the flip side; it implies that humans and computers and dolphins and rocks are all machines exhibiting a continuum of modes of ‘consciousness’ according to their information-processing capacity."

David Olivier 01:32, 8 May 2006 (UTC)

But perhaps it is good to have it here, but with the qualifying note I added to point out that it is not anthropomorphism proper.

The

[edit] That picture isn't very good

It should be removed. It's mostly white space, the character isn't notable and it's been stuck there by someone using Wikipedia as an picture hosting site. -- Nydas 00:05, 7 May 2006 (UTC)

The reason the image is there is because the previous picture was copyrighted. I think it's a good illustration of anthropomorphism. A picture's purpose is to illustrate the article, not to be notable.

In response to your accusation that the artist was simply using Wikipedia as a picture hosting site, I believe that is incorrect. It seems to me that the artist generously provided the picture because there was a need for a GFDL image for this article. This is apparent when one finds that she added the picture to this article the same day she uploaded it to Wikipedia. That isn't the behavior of someone just looking for a free image host.

As for the white space, I agree that it should be cropped. I suggested this to the artist before, but she seems to have not been active on Wikipedia since then. So, I just did it myself. I hope it looks better now, although unfortunately I only was able to work from a JPG so there is a slight loss in quality. It's barely noticeable though. -kotra 00:07, 8 May 2006 (UTC)

I agree the picture is excellent addition and I think it captures and illustrates Anthropomorpism elegantly. The accusation by Nydas seems spurious. Also, the cropping, really makes the pictures better. Thank you for being bold, kotra. Leontes 02:17, 8 May 2006 (UTC)

Someone using Wikipedia as a picture host will obviously try to 'anchor' their image to an article to avoid it being deleted.

There must be thousands of better pictures illustrating anthropomorphism out there, seeing as it's something humans have been using since the dawn of history. Egyptian gods, for example. The article should probably have at least one non-animal anthropomorph as well. Old Father Time, or Death, or even Uncle Sam. And if you're determined to have a furry at the head of the article, why not use a more technically accomplished one?--Nydas 07:25, 8 May 2006 (UTC)

"Better" is subjective, and for the purpose of illustration, one picture isn't any better than another if it adequately does the job. This one just happens to be the one used, mainly because it's available. Illustrations and photos are the one type of original content Wikipedia allows, and encourages, because it provides GFDL content where the availability of non-original works are limited by copyright. Wikipedia could be said to be commissioning artwork and photos for illustrative purposes, but it would not be "hosting" images because no other uses or promotions are allowed. Coyoty 16:55, 9 May 2006 (UTC)

I don't like the picture very much either. But I expect many of you don't see my feelings about it as so very important. I don't really grasp that thing about using WP for hosting, but then I haven't really thought about it much. So perhaps what I should say is that I don't have much to say on the issue of that picture. Thanks for your attention. David Olivier 17:41, 9 May 2006 (UTC)

"Adequate" is subjective, too. May I ask under what circumstances you'd consider replacing the image? As for it being available, there must be hundreds of anthropomorph pictures already hosted on wikipedia that are more notable and/or have a higher technical standard. Having this picture at the head of the article is like me putting a drawing of a plane I made up at the head of the aviation history article.--Nydas 18:11, 9 May 2006 (UTC)

Well, perhaps that would be more relevant than the current picture (one of Icarus an Daedalus) (though that picture is cute). David Olivier 18:46, 9 May 2006 (UTC)

About the use of Wikipedia as an image host, especially when one must "anchor" the image to an article to avoid deletion: This is in my opinion unrealistic when you consider that there are many well-known free image hosting providers that are far superior to Wikipedia, like Photobucket. Why would someone use Wikipedia when these are available?

As for the quality of the image, I agree it isn't a perfect example of flawless art, but it very accurately illustrates anthropomorphism. It's a cat, standing upright, wearing a military uniform, and acting in a human way. Wouldn't that be anthropomorphism? I agree, though, that the article is too animal-centric. We discussed this earlier pertaining to the dog wearing clothes image. You're welcome to find an image that is better than the dog photograph, but we should keep the cat drawing, since it is GFDL and a good illustration of the subject. If you can find a picture that undisputedly better portrays the subject of anthropomorphism than the drawing though, you're welcome to move the drawing down to make room for your picture at the top. -kotra 23:12, 9 May 2006 (UTC)

When someone's only significant contribution to Wikipedia is to add a single, unremarkable image, one tends to suspect it might be vanity at work. Looking at her edit history, you can see she toyed with the idea of putting her e-mail address in the caption.

Some suggestions for a new picture (apologies if this looks like a mess on anybody's browser):

Easter Island Moai

An Olmec stone head

J. M. Flagg's Uncle Sam

Michelangelo's David

Statuette of Anubis

I do prefer it when articles that have a significant historical importance have interesting historical pictures. I suppose you could argue that the statues aren't really anthropomorphs, but I think they are. Hunks of rock that have been transformed to look more human - surely an example of anthropomorphism? For the record, I like the haunting gaze of the Moai best. It's a wonderful picture.--Nydas 11:56, 11 May 2006 (UTC)

Interesting picture suggestions. Perhaps they would appropriate further down in the article, as I prefer the pre-existing picture to any of these as a clear example of anthropomorphism, that conveys effectively to the reader. I think it's fine you don't much like the picture but I find your assumptions distasteful regarding the creator of the image. Leontes 21:30, 11 May 2006 (UTC)

I agree that the Easter Island statues look cool, but I don't think most people would think of statues as "anthropomorphized rock" (even though they are, technically). The Anubis picture, however, might be good somewhere, because it's a deity in the form of an anthropomorphic animal. However, there probably are too many images of anthropomorphic animals. Perhaps one of the images on Death (personification) or ASIMO as I suggested earlier, or Greek personifications like Helios, Eros, or even Face on Mars might be a good example of anthropomorphism. -kotra 09:40, 12 May 2006 (UTC)

Added ASIMO and Helios/Apollo to the head of the article, moved the cat to modern occurences and shrunk it a bit.--Nydas 18:10, 15 May 2006 (UTC)

Good work with ASIMO, although I think Apollo might be not the best example of anthropomorphism in religion because he is a god of so many things, of which the sun god is just one of his aspects. That's why I suggested Helios (who was incorporated into Apollo in later ancient Greek religion) because he's a personification of the sun and nothing else. Perhaps Image:Helios.jpg would be a better example. -kotra 11:50, 16 May 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Animal Rights

Shouldn't animal rights be mentioned in the article as they're based on seeing - existing or not - human qualities in animals?