Talk:Andrew Cohen
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This guy has followers all over the world so I think he is notable enough to be in Wikipedia. There was already a link to this page (from the New Age article) that I had not created, before I wrote this article. Andries 00:52, 12 Sep 2004 (UTC)
[edit] copyvio
This article is in violation of wikipedia's copyright policy. It was copied word-for-word from: http://www.andrewcohen.org/pressroom/bio.asp.
[edit] New copy posted
- There was no copyright violation involved, as I had permission to modify and post to Wikipedia the copy in question, but per Wikipedia's interest in having original content only, a new bio has been written from scratch. --Soulplex 64.69.101.122 20:16, 15 Feb 2005 (UTC)
- Your verbiage is not encyclopedic and as such, qualifies for deletion. It is an advertisement, and ads are inappropriate to wikipedia. I support reverting this article to Andries' stub. And this, by the way, is coming from a WIE subscriber. --Goethean 21:03, 15 Feb 2005 (UTC)
- Moreover, what Goethean hasn't mentioned is that we cannot take just your say-so that you've now aquired permission to use the text. We don't take the say-sos of pseudonymous users for that, let alone of anonymous ones. They are simply not verifiable. It is the owner of that text's copyright that must explicitly say that xe grants permission, not you. And the best way to do that is to simply licence the contents of xyr web site under the GFDL, removing the current copyright notice from the bottom and placing a GFDL notice there instead. An inferior way to do that is for you to send a Boilerplate request for permission to the copyright owner, and for the copyright owner to inform Wikipedia that it grants permission for the content to be licenced under the GFDL. Uncle G 21:10, 2005 Feb 15 (UTC)
- Thanks, Uncle G. That's good to know. Nevertheless, the copy in question was removed, and I wrote the version put in its place--which, per the concerns of Goethean, I am currently revising to NPOV-ize the language even further to make the information presented more clearly in accordance with the Wikipedian standard. --Soulplex 64.69.101.122 21:17, 15 Feb 2005 (UTC)
[edit] Soulplex's Removal of link
"Soulplex" (64.69.101.122) has once again removed the link to WhatEnlightenment? weblog, the subject of which is Andrew Cohen. He needs to stop engaging in an Edit war. He needs to give an explanation of his behavior. Is the link not relevant? Why the partiality?
I hate to say something really mean, but this is sort of like dealing with Hare Krishnas. They have a terrible reputation on Wikipedia for vandalism, censorship, and general ill-will. --Goethean 23:23, 17 Feb 2005 (UTC)
[edit] cleanup tag removal
Can I take down the cleanup tag now? --Goethean 19:12, 18 Feb 2005 (UTC)
[edit] Person vs Group
For a variety of reasons, it might make sense to spin off an article about Cohen's "EnlightenNext" and "Evolutionary Enlightenment". One reason is that now we have Cohen categorized as a "New Religious Movements" and as an "Intentional Community". Cohen is obviously not a community, intentional or otherwise, nor is he a movement. Any thoughts? -Willmcw 23:07, August 25, 2005 (UTC)
- Sounds sensible. I'm adding "EnlightenNext" to the NRM list to encourage it being an article. (I can switch it to "Evolutionary Enlightenment" later if that's preferred.)--T. Anthony 04:48, 19 September 2005 (UTC)
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- I thought the (possibly obsolete) name of the group is FACE Friends of Andrew Cohen Everywhere. Andries 04:57, 19 September 2005 (UTC)
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- Okay I'm on it.--T. Anthony 06:05, 19 September 2005 (UTC)
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[edit] Falk
I have written more about this on the Ken Wilber talk page and on my talk page in response to the return of the link.
Nofalk
- Please explain why you deleted this relevant link from this article. Thanks, -Willmcw 23:50, 20 December 2005 (UTC)
I am all for criticism of Cohen, but the Falk work has no merit. NPOV does not mean no quality control.
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- What's wrong with this website? Why are you removng it repeatedly? -Willmcw 05:52, 21 December 2005 (UTC)
What is wrong with it? Have you read it? Falk's criticism consists of cheap abuse, crap point scoring and weak sarcasm. He adds no value to the debate at all, since all his points are second-hand, with the exception of the Yogananda chapter. It is just trolling. Why would Wikipedia send someone to such a reference? It is not going to be useful to anyone. If someone farted would you link to it? This is just adolescent sounding off. van der Braak's book is an excellent and balanced obsevation of the day-to-day workings of a cult and without resorting to abuse or even harsh criticism he paints a picture which shows Cohen to be a very problematic leader. The Whatenlightenment site has ex-Cohenites discussing their experiences at some depth. These are devastating criticisms of Cohen and Wikipedia just doesn't need an unhinged rant to sit alongside them. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by nofalk1 (talk • contribs) .
- Nofalk, can you please sign your comments with four tildes ~~~~? Yes, van der Braak's book has everything to become a cult classic. I have not read Falk, but Wikipedia does generally little quality control with regards to external links. May be it should, but that will problematic to implement. Andries 18:57, 23 December 2005 (UTC)
- What particularly struck me as funny is that Andrew's followers were called Androids by outsiders. Andries 18:58, 23 December 2005 (UTC)
- As I read it, Falk gives serious criticism with sources. That makes it an appropriate external link. See Wikipedia:external links. -Willmcw 19:31, 23 December 2005 (UTC)
Willmcw: I don't see any statement in the style page you link to which would suggest that Falk's doc is a candidate for inclusion in the links. It does not contain neutral and accurate material, other meaningful, relevant content or cover a point of view expressed in the article (since it would be inappropriate to include unjustified abuse as a pov within the article.) 'Serious criticism with sources' is not on the list, but even if it were, Falk is a long way from serious. Nofalk1 15:38, 24 December 2005 (UTC)
- I disagree with you on all counts. Please don't remove it without a consensus. -Willmcw 17:33, 24 December 2005 (UTC)
You are perfectly entitled to disagree and to inform us that you do but you have to provide some argument to back that up if you want your view to be acted upon. How can consensus be built if all you are not prepared to discuss? I'll hold off changing it again for a few days to give you time to set your counter-argument out.Nofalk1 11:47, 26 December 2005 (UTC)
- I still sdon't see what the problem is with this site. You say "all of his points are second hand", but that is not a reason to remove it. On the contrary, that indicates he is summarizing other ideas which makes is a useful link for further reading. Your username alone indicates you have a one-point agenda in editing here. -Willmcw 19:31, 26 December 2005 (UTC)
Is there any relationship with Gangaji ? I remember something about that. Andries 22:57, 12 February 2006 (UTC)
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- She was briefly a student of Cohen's, in the early years, before she decided to follow his own guru (Poonja) instead. Kosmocentric 02:51, 19 October 2006 (UTC)
[edit] Criticized for ignoring
- In 2002, Cohen's magazine "WIE" conducted an interview in India with Patrizia Norelli-Bachelet discussing her role in the Supramental Yoga begun by Sri Aurobindo, her teachings of Evolution, of a Cosmological perspective and of the limitations of the typical view of Enlightenment of the Buddhists. "WIE" did not publish the interview, made no mention of her in their "Guru and Pandit" discussions or an exclusive article on Sri Aurobindo's Supramental Yoga, "Why Sri Aurobindo is Cool". The main criticism of Cohen held by Norelli-Bachelet's students is the unanswered question, "Why doesn't Cohen make any reference to her work, even though he knows about her and even though he knows that for 30 years she has made significant contributions to the issues that he is just starting to delve into and expresses as a new teaching, regarding Evolution and the Cosmic perspective?
This unsourced criticism seems awfully weak. It appears that unnamed students of Norelli-Bachelet believe that Cohen should give more credit to their master, should mention her more often in his magazine, and should have run an interview. This does not appear to be a serious criticism, and is unsourced. Can anyone improve it? Otherwise I think it should be deleted. -Will Beback 23:14, 1 March 2006 (UTC)
Agreed. I'm sure there are fifty million other people who have been left out of "WIE" and feel personally wounded by the oversight. But one particular and seemingly insignificant instance of such seems hardly worthy of inclusion in a biography about the magazine's founder. -66.155.208.3 04:35, 24 March 2006 (UTC)
I couldn't find any references for it on Google either (apart from the links to wikipedia!), so I deleted it. I have no problem with including the material at some future date, but only both if it can be referenced (with correspondence or a copy of the unpublished interview or in some other way) and if it is mentioned as one among many criticisms of Cohen. M Alan Kazlev 13:58, 24 April 2006 (UTC)
[edit] Problems with Criticism Section
I've removed the line in the criticism section referring to Cohen's "apparent inability to confer similar teaching status on any of his long-time followers." Because the goal of Cohen's teaching concerns collective development, not personal enlightenment and "completion" as in many other spiritual paths, the criticism doesn't seem to apply. Also, it isn't true. He does appear to have students in similar teaching positions: http://www.eecourse.org/instructors.htm
I'm also making tiny tweaks to the language in that section to help prevent it from falling under the "libel against living persons" policy. Kosmocentric 16:05, 29 August 2006 (UTC)
[edit] Removal of Dutch article
I've removed the reference to the Dutch article...it's already included on the Dutch version of this page and is unlikely to be helpful to English readers.
[edit] Excellent
http://www.johnhorgan.org/work21.htm
[edit] Passionate
http://www.andrewcohen.org/blog/pdf/declaration-of-integrity.pdf I would like reading a book of Cohen about his experience with his mother being his disciple, sort of answer to her "Mother of God". Of course not a book where he is trying to defend himself against her point of view, no, just presenting his point of view on that/this relationship. Austerlitz 88.72.11.82 08:58, 29 October 2006 (UTC)
- Here one can find an interview with Dzongsar Khyentse Rinpoche, the guy Cohen is talking about in his declaration. It has been done by Kelly Roberts and the title is What Changes and What Doesn't http://www.purifymind.com/IV6.htm You have to search for it, because it is not the first interview collected here. 88.72.11.82 09:24, 29 October 2006 (UTC)
- Quotation from the interview with Dzongsar Khyentse Rinpoche:
- In the film [The Cup], the Abbot writes about his wish that, "Nyima and Palden would continue to uphold the Buddha's teachings according to these modern times." What is it you're trying to say with that?
It doesn't mean they will change the Buddha's fundamental view. That should never be changed. I have met people in the West who are excessively attached to the external trappings of Buddhism. There is all this sentimental attachment to Tibetan customs and culture, and the actual Buddhist view is overlooked. In fact, I have heard that in creating a so-called "American Buddhism," some people are saying, "Okay, maybe the Buddha's view should be changed, now that Buddhism is in America." And that's not good. I would prefer that Americans really stick with the Buddha's view: the emptiness of inherent existence, that everything composite is impermanent, and so on. It doesn't matter if they leave out Tibetan culture. The really important thing is that they should accept the dharma. They should not worry about trying to design something better suited to Americans. The Buddha was an omniscient being. What he said was good for all sentient beings, and that includes us 2,500 years later. Nothing additional is necessary now. I see Westerners wearing chubas and showing off their malas. But I think the more people do that, the more they forget the essence, the actual point of the Buddha's teaching. It's amazing to see how eager some people are to adopt what is not essential, and throw out what is essential!
- Austerlitz 88.72.28.167 18:13, 3 November 2006 (UTC)
- Here an interview with Poonjaji (one of Cohen's teachers) about enlightenment: http://www.papaji.com/ Austerlitz 88.72.5.141 11:46, 29 October 2006 (UTC)
[edit] Some information about "The mother of God"
http://www.scp-inc.org/publications/newsletters/N2203/mother_of_god.html 88.72.11.82 09:15, 29 October 2006 (UTC)
[edit] COMMUNITY OPINION NEEDED FOR PROPOSED LINK
My idea is to add a link under the criticism section to http://www.whatenlightenment.blogspot.com, as this site is maintained by many of Andrew's former students and makes claims about a number of abuses that occurred under his watch. The site holds to a journalistic standard of reporting accusations, and while the Cohen organization has responded to them several times they have not denied any of the more serious accusations made on this website. This site contains unique information about this topic and I believe should be included, considering many of the other links are vague and not very useful. The issue is whether to waive the general policy of not linking to blogs. Any thoughts?
