Talk:Adalbert of Prague
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The entry says that St. Adalbert was born 939. I looked in Britannica and it says 956. Who is right? --css
To css !! I got the date of 939 for birth of St Adalbert from the Catholic Encyclopedia, New Advent (They show 939- 997 , but positioned at the wrong St Adalbert. They list several.)
The date of birth does not make any difference to me in the story and I am taking it out. I found several articles at www.weptop.com . Some say he was martyred at the Pomeranian coast. That is incorrect, because it was the Samland coast . Samland in Prussia has never been Pomerania . Danzig , where he started out in Prussia, was christianised from the west from Pomerania and was at times ruled by the Pomerelian ( Little Pomeranian) dukes ,even though it was situated in Old Prussi Land. But the Eastern part of Prussia was Christianised from Riga in Livland Livonia ( today Latvia) and was under the archbishopric of Riga.
I removed the 'loss of land and freedom' part. Christianization, IF it was combined with conquest by a neighboring Lord, might have meant loss of 'freedom'. Plenty of people converted without 'loss of freedom'. Lots of these north German entries seem to imply that the Prussians were noble savages (I'm especially amused by the idea that they fought with clubs because clubs were 'less final' than swords - that implies that fighting with clubs was a positive thing and that these noble savages were corrupted by their wicked, sword-using neighbors. That's all arrant speculation. If they didn't use swords it was because they were so poor and so metallurgically unsophisticated that they couldn't. People always use the best weapons they can afford.).
Christianization did mean loss of land and freedom . Read the book about the Baltic or Northern Crusades at amazon.com.
Prussian reiks (chiefs) Warpode and Survabuno were "Christianized" and brought to the Pope. After they found out the pope wanted to take the land over, they Re-verted back to Old Prussian Baltic Nature believe. To the clubs ( throwing and hitting) , Prussians had plenty of metal, used it for tools, bowls, jewelry etc . But until Crusaders were sent, starting with Boleslaw I Chrobrie's soldiers coming in with Vojtech Adalbert , Prussians had no need for heavy deadly weapons.
When you look at bowling pins , you have the shape of the throwing clubs.
- Christianization was a complex process. It involved considerable social change and/or it was caused by considerable social change. However, the popes did not take land except by insisting that any churches and diocese founded be adequately self-supporting (which certainly involved demanding land and income). They often interfered in the actual distribution of larger territorial units, but seldom successfully - see the entries on the Normans and Ireland, where the Pope tried to interfere and failed. We are trying to write articles that reflect this complication, and simply saying "Christianization meant the loss of land and freedom" is not complex enough.
- I didn't ask a question about clubs, and I don't deny that they used them. I asserted that the reason they used them was different. Metal for jewelry is not suitable for making swords. No people is inherently more peaceful than any other, so the idea that they didn't WANT to use better weapons doesn't work. People always use the best weapons they can afford or are permitted to use. --MichaelTinkler
Which popes are involved with Adalbert? I suppose more than one, given the time-frame and the shortness of some of those papacies. Let's get the names in. --MichaelTinkler
There is a current theory that Adalbert was murdered for being a Polish spy JHK
[edit] Repayment?
The line:
This investment perfectly paid off.
is not clear. How did buying the body of the dead missionary pay off? I understand that the saint's tomb became an important pilgrimage, and even had political repurcussions, but this sentence does not make any of that clear. -Willmcw 07:06, 14 Dec 2004 (UTC)
The paragraph about Vojtěch's conflicts and the murder in 995 seems to contradict most sources on Czech history.
First, Vrśovcy should be spelled Vršovci (ś is never used in Czech names and the -cy suffix doesn't exist in Czech).
Second, the murder of the Slavníks in 995 has been probably ordered by the ruling dynasty of the Přemyslides, for whom the expanding power of Slavníks was becoming a threat. Vršovci don't seem to be connected to this event.
Unless anybody objects, I will correct the article soon. MJ 20:37, 5 February 2006 (UTC)
According to Cosmas' chronicle, Slavniks were murdered by Vrśovci who were comits (confederates) of Boleslav II. He promised them Libice town in thanks of helping him to incorporate Zličan princedom to Prague. Thus Boleslav made Vrśovci do all the work. If you consult the firstprimary source you easily ascertain all this. okoli 06:45, 28 February 2006 (UTC)
