Wikipedia:Kōrero/2004b

Nō Wikipedia Māori

Wikipedia:Kōrero, Pūranga 2004 (2)

Why is it we use English so much here? Not in Korero, where it is understandable (for the moment), but in individual pages? If somebody speaks Maori, they'll be able to read and understand a request for them to help with mi:, otherwise they're probably at the wrong place and can click on "English" in the list of "other languages". No MediaWiki messages should have any English, nor should the main page. The only places where English should be permitted is userpages, talkpages, and (possibly) text explaining external links. en:List of Animals, if it exists (I'm not sure it does), doesn't give Maori translations. The fact that the Maori equivalent gives English translations for each word implies to me that the author of the page is of the POV that the English names for these animals are somehow relevant, which they aren't.

In addition, what's all this about being PURPOSEFULLY Aotearoa-centric? (I'm referring to the stuff about "primarily about..." in articles explaining Wikipedia) It's understandable to have a concentration of articles about New Zealand and especially about Maori-related topics (that's the case with most Wikipedias), but we should strive to be international and nothing-centric (except perhaps Earth-centric). en: obviously has a concentration of articles about American and Commonwealth-related topics, as does fr: with articles about France and Francophonie in general, but both strive to lower that concentration by increasing their repertoire of articles about other cultures and nations. To condone and even support such a concentration is against the spirit of Wikipedia. As is the case with all Wikipedias, it is the hope of all Wikipedians that all the articles in any given Wikipedia that only occur in that Wikipedia be translated so they can be included in all other Wikipedias. If that were to happen for all such articles right now, most Wikipedias would be fairly nothing-centric, though of course there would be slight bias towards first English, then German, French, Japanese.

--24.251.242.236 04:11, 10 Aug 2004 (UTC)

Kia ora, e manuhiri. I look forward to seeing your first 70 articles (preferably in fluent or even passable Maori, so as to be better than my first 70), and I'm happy to see you cover the whole world. I recommend that you start by attacking most of the red links on Hau Kāinga. Then you and your friends can work on your idea (which I agree with) that "it is the hope of all Wikipedians that all the articles in any given Wikipedia that only occur in that Wikipedia be translated so they can be included in all other Wikipedias" - translating 300,000 articles from "en" into "mi". Kia kaha, e hoa! Robin Patterson 06:25, 10 Aug 2004 (UTC)

Your condescention is noted and ignored. If you agree with that "idea", which is actually central to Wikipedia policy and goals, then why does Wikipedia:Community Portal say that mi: is intended to have a concentration of local topics?

• It says that because I'm trying to encourage Maori speakers to realise that they are most welcome to write about something familiar. I'll remove it when it's done that. Robin Patterson 20:37, 10 Aug 2004 (UTC)

The point of Wikipedia is generally accepted to be quality rather than quantity, though in some cases people get carried away (take for example all the US placenames with only rudimentary census information which was added by bot). Thus, rather than working towards 70 articles which you yourself claim to be in poor Maori (and stubs, at that),

• Some of them are in good Maori, and some are not stubs Robin Patterson 20:37, 10 Aug 2004 (UTC)

perhaps you could find a Maori friend and have them help you translate or write one whole quality article from scratch?

• I don't have Maori friends who are interested yet; I have approached Maori Television and the Maori Language Commission and a community newsletter and a couple of tribal websites, with more of that planned; one day it may inspire someone to become active. Robin Patterson 20:37, 10 Aug 2004 (UTC)

This is generally how successful new Wikipedias start, and if people don't do it that way, when fluent speakers do come they're often discouraged by the mess that's already been created by non-fluent speakers.

• Tell me where it's a mess and I'll try to fix it or call in the experts. Robin Patterson 20:37, 10 Aug 2004 (UTC)

If you want to practice Maori, maybe you can do that on Korero, but generally Wikipedia policy frowns on editing just to practice your language skills rather than to actually contribute coherent content (though en:, de:, and fr: are now generally accepting of crappy English/German/French because of the wealth of native speakers who will fix it on sight).

• Show me some content that is not coherent, and as above I'll attend to it. Robin Patterson 20:37, 10 Aug 2004 (UTC)

Non-fluents have started Wikipedias and made Main Pages, but to get very far beyond that with any degree of success has thus far required a native speaker. (for example a non-fluent started sc:, and recruited the first native speaker for fo:; obviously they tried their best for the mainpage at sc: and did extremely minimal interface translation; Merovingian did the same for mg: and I believe quite a few other Wikipedias have been started that way)

In addition, you didn't respond to many of my questions. Also, since you're the sysop, why don't you fix all the interface messages which use diereses (or is it dieresises?) instead of macrons?

• I don't have much spare time; some of your questions were interesting but I didn't have a good answer; I have at present better things to do than "fix" any diaeresis[?!} - they work AND are still used on many full Maori websites Robin Patterson 20:37, 10 Aug 2004 (UTC)

I also noticed that at the category page you mention that categories aren't nessecarily needed. This was already discussed before the recent implementation of categories, and most agreed that while they were not absolutely nessecary, they were definitely a useful feature. If you meant that they aren't the first priority in getting mi: up and running, then I definitely agree with you there.

• Another of our many points of agreement! Robin Patterson 20:37, 10 Aug 2004 (UTC)

Also, I noticed that you advertise for your own webpage in one of the system messages (the one about categories). It's generally accepted as policy that while one may add relevant links to normal articles and talk pages, and come very close to advertising (ie only semi-relevant links to sites of ones own) on talk pages, and resort to blatant commercialism on one's own userpage, linking in such a way in the Wikipedia: or MediaWiki: namespace is generally frowned upon.

• I don't have any commercial webpages; please specify the one that seems to upset you. Robin Patterson 20:37, 10 Aug 2004 (UTC)

If you sincerely believe that this should be a bilingual Wikipedia until more native speakers come, that's fine with me, but I continue to disagree. As I said before, using English and other non-Maori languages in talkpages and for things you don't know how to translate yourself is fine, but when you resort to having bilingual system messages and a partially or completely bilingual mainpage (in addition to, say, your list of animals), that generally discourages native speakers from editing because it seems less like an effort to build a true Maori Wikipedia at first glance.

• Over 99% of Maori speakers understand English perfectly well, often better than they understand Maori. The bilingual instructions will help them all to navigate and work out how to contribute. Robin Patterson 20:37, 10 Aug 2004 (UTC)

As I said before, people who wish to edit here but have limited Maori can visit Community Portal or Korero, and if they are simply interested in the Wikipedia project itself, they can click the link on te Hau Kāinga to the Wikipedia in their language of choice (including Te Reo Tiamana, Te Reo Wiwi, *and* Te Reo Ingarihi).

You may not appreciate my criticisms, and normally I would not expect you to take this sort of criticism, but you are currently the sole sysop on mi: (well, the sole sysop that knows anything better than "kia ora") and as such it's YOUR job to fix problems and deal with people's complaints until you can recruit more sysops.

• It is a bit of a burden. I didn't ask to be a sysop. The good folk who started this off (including those whose Maori is almost certainly better than mine) have virtually left it alone. But, as indicated in a couple of replies above, I'm happy to address perceived "problems". I think I have responded as positively as possible to every newcomer who has contributed anything. Robin Patterson 20:37, 10 Aug 2004 (UTC)

Re: "it's YOUR job to..." - it's no one's "job" to do anything on a volunteer project. I suggest you stop criticising the work of other people if you have nothing constructive to contribute yourself. Also, if you want to have a conversation with Robin, I think his talk page would be a better place to do that rather than the Körero. Angela

As to me editing articles in Maori: I do not wish to mess up mi: with my poor Maori. I do have a friend who may be willing to edit, though I think he'd be a lot more likely if mi: wasn't transparently bilingual.

• I have been thinking of removing more of the English from Hau Kāinga now that I've created the Community Portal for people who have little or no Maori. Maybe I'll do that in a week or two if nobody comes and disagrees. Thanks. Robin Patterson 20:37, 10 Aug 2004 (UTC)

• PLEASE ASK YOUR FRIEND to have a go!!! He or she may like to start with a look at this Wikipedia:Wikipedia English Language articles about Maori subjects Robin Patterson 20:37, 10 Aug 2004 (UTC)

• • I did. He said that it looked like it was only partially in Maori, and that he'd think about contributing later when it looked "better". I asked him what he meant by better, and he said he meant when it looked more "Maori". My friend *is* familiar with Wikipedia (though I don't think he's done more than a small bit of editing on en:); what you said about Maori bilingualism is true (in fact, I was under the impression that well over 99% of Maori speakers were bilingual), however the enthusiasm of a new user who's thinking of contributing is probably much dampened by the over-abundance of English on even the Main Page, but many system messages as well.
  • Also, while diereses do work, it's been decided *on this page* that we are to use macrons instead. If for some reason I'm wrong about that, you could at least change the system messages that currently use macrons so that they use diereses instead so that it's at least consistent.
  • As to the folks who started this Wikipedia - I'm not sure if you're aware, but the start of mi: is shrouded in scandal, many assert that Perl only started it because he wanted to be a sysop at as many projects as possible. The only Maori he knew he got from an online dictionary, which is where the original interface translations came from. I personally would've started it myself had it not already been started (though I would've used macrons from the beginning, and I'd not've done so much of the user interface without the opinion of at least somebody who has studied a little Maori instead of using a dictionary alone; I also wouldn'tve requested sysophood like he did), as the other couple of Wikipedias I've started testify to.
  • As to advertising, I have noted at least one instance of a link to your "zonk" site in the Wikipedia: or MediaWiki: namespace. It's fine in talk pages, and even on pages on the article namespace where it's a relevant link, but for an article in the Wikipedia: namespace it's generally unacceptable. Whether or not it's commercial is not relevant; it is obviously a website that you are affiliated with.

• Moved the offending material to MediaWiki talk:Category (and explained its value) - incidentally, I'm more "affiliated" with Wikipedia than with Zeal in terms of time spent in the last 6 months. Robin Patterson 23:03, 10 Aug 2004 (UTC)
• And thanks for replying so soon. Please ask your friend to have another go, translating anything he or she wants to on article pages and Hau Kāinga, so as to reduce the proportion of English. Robin Patterson 23:03, 10 Aug 2004 (UTC)

• Well, nearly 4 weeks later, the anonymous contributor hasn't responded to my request that he or she tell me what else specifically needs fixing. I did "fix" some of the links that used diaereses instead of macrons, so now there's a bit more that I can't read on my home computer - and other users may have the same problem. Apart from that, I've just gone on occasionally adding a few articles per week, almost exclusively in Māori, and removing some of the English here and there. Noted with pleasure that many of our pages come up on general web searches for specific page names. By way of personal interest, I'm creating a page listing articles that have received significant input from people who know more Māori than I do. I hope most of those contributors come back and continue the improvements. If I've omitted a contribution one of them thinks should be listed, he or she can add it. Robin Patterson 03:57, 6 Sep 2004 (UTC)