Template talk:In the news

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In the news
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Shortcut: T:ITNT

This is the discussion page for the In the news section of the Main Page, referred to as ITN. If you are new to ITN, please read the criteria and procedures that guide ITN and its updates. The most important is that ITN does not act as a newspaper; it provides links to encyclopedia articles that have been updated to reflect important current events.

[edit] Quick guide

Iranian President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad (pictured) opens a conference examining the Holocaust. In his final speech in office, UN Secretary-General Kofi Annan encourages the United States to provide global leadership whilst respecting multilateralism. Incumbent Igor Smirnov wins presidential elections in the internationally unrecognized state of Transnistria. Space Shuttle Discovery launches Christer Fuglesang, the first Scandinavian astronaut in space, and six others on mission STS-116 to the International Space Station. Former Chilean head of state Augusto Pinochet (age 91) dies one week after suffering a heart attack. Marc Ravalomanana is re-elected as President of Madagascar. Wikinews – Recent deaths – More current events... view - page history - related changes - Edit (admins only) - Suggestions

If you have already read the criteria page, here is the quick guide:

• For an item to appear on ITN, a relevant article must be updated and a blurb added to Portal:Current events or one of its subpages.
• The event has to be important enough to merit updating the article and should be of international import, or at least interest.
• If you are not an admin, have updated an article with an item that you feel is of international significance and put a blurb on Current events, suggest the item at the candidates page.
• If you are an admin, familiarize yourself with both the Criteria and Admin guidelines. In particular, please pay close attention to the procedure for images.

Archives
2004 – Jan 2005 Jan–Apr 2005 May–Oct 2005 Nov–Dec 2005 Dec 2005 – Mar 2006 Mar–Jun 2005 Jun–Jul 2006 Jul–Sep 2006 Oct 2006 Nov 2006

Contents 1 Quick guide 2 Benedict meeting Bartholomew in Turkey 3 UCLA Taser incident 4 Iraq Study Group 5 Augusto Pinochet 6 Kofi Annan 7 Ipswich murders 8 Pinochet

[edit] Benedict meeting Bartholomew in Turkey

Pope Benedict XVI meeting Ecumenical Patriarch Bartholomew I of Constantinople in Istanbul (Constantinople). Has anybody dealt with this? Do you realize the importance of a reconciliation visit some 1000 years after the Schism? If this is not notable encyclopedic news, then what is? NikoSilver 11:21, 30 November 2006 (UTC)

Taking into account all the statements and negotiations that took place before the trip, his recent speech in Bavaria (that had as a side effect the muslims' anger), and also the facts that this is the Pope's second trip (the first one being his native Germany) and the first in a muslim country, i think it should be mentioned 'In the news'. Without also forgeting that this trip, for which the Pope was invited last year by the Ecumenical Patriarch, is meant to heal the wounds of the Great Schism, and this is its aim. Even today the Pope called the divisions among the Christians as a scandal for humanity, not to mention that they called each other succesors of brothers (Apostles Peter and Andrew) and their churches (Catholic and Orthodox respectively) as sister churches. Since the Pope is about to visit later today the Hagia Sophia and the Blue Mosque, i suppose it is quite important his visit in Turkey to be in the news. A quick look in BBC, CNN, the Greek, Italian, Turkish and German media (to list just some, cause it is mentioned on every station and newspaper in the world), will persuade everyone about that. Hectorian 13:40, 30 November 2006 (UTC)

It's notable, but is there an updated article that corresponds to the actual event? Nishkid64 18:13, 2 December 2006 (UTC)

It's covered at Pope Benedict XVI#Turkey (November 28 to December 1, 2006). —Josiah Rowe (talk • contribs) 22:30, 7 December 2006 (UTC)

Afterthought — it would have been appropriate to add this when it was current, but the trip is past and it would be somewhat belated to add it now. —Josiah Rowe (talk • contribs) 23:02, 7 December 2006 (UTC)

It was (notice past tense referring to 'belated' above) also covered in Ecumenical Patriarch Bartholomew I of Constantinople (the article I had initially posted here when it was current). Unfortunately I didn't know the process then (and still don't). I always thought WP had a separate mechanism for finding notable news (especially of that importance). Obviously I was wrong, and the whole thing depends on us mere users to suggest... NikoSilver 23:11, 7 December 2006 (UTC)

Actually, you did the right thing. It's the rest of us — particularly the admins who are supposed to keep tabs on this page — who fell down on the job. I was busy with other matters, and didn't check this often enough. The only other thing you might have done is add the item to Portal:Current events, which is supposed to be a prerequisite for addition to "In the news". —Josiah Rowe (talk • contribs) 23:30, 7 December 2006 (UTC)

:-( NikoSilver 00:47, 11 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] UCLA Taser incident

Seems like an example that fits the purpose of this template purfectly. 149.175.37.228 21:08, 6 December 2006 (UTC)

Is it of international interest? —Josiah Rowe (talk • contribs) 22:27, 7 December 2006 (UTC)

What the hell is that? Grandmasterka 22:31, 7 December 2006 (UTC)

UCLA Taser incident, apparently. I don't think it's quite important enough for the template, myself, but I thought I'd give others a chance to reply. —Josiah Rowe (talk • contribs) 22:32, 7 December 2006 (UTC)

It's a great article, but unfortunately, it has no real international significance. Nishkid64 22:35, 7 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Iraq Study Group

Would it be appropriate to add the publication of the Iraq Study Group Report to "In the News", or is that too U.S.-centric? —Josiah Rowe (talk • contribs) 22:24, 7 December 2006 (UTC)

I think it would count as "international interest", although I'm sure others might disagree. Grandmasterka 22:32, 7 December 2006 (UTC)

I think it's something of major international interest, but I also don't know what others would think. I think it should be up there. How shall we word it? Nishkid64 22:34, 7 December 2006 (UTC)

How about this:

The Iraq Study Group releases its final report, describing the situation in Iraq as "grave and deteriorating" and making 79 policy recommendations.

—Josiah Rowe (talk • contribs) 22:48, 7 December 2006 (UTC)

I've been bold and put this on the template; if anyone wants to improve the wording, post here and I or another admin will change it. —Josiah Rowe (talk • contribs) 23:06, 7 December 2006 (UTC)

I noticed it wasn't linked to the Iraq War, and I was going to fix it, but I had to go to dinner. Looks like someone else got to it first. Nishkid64 00:52, 8 December 2006 (UTC)

I suggest that Chavez should move out in favour of Image:ISG report cover.jpg. Shagmaestro 08:46, 9 December 2006 (UTC)

It's a nice thought, but that image is copyrighted, and I don't think we're supposed to put fair use images on the front page. (I'm not entirely sure why that is, come to think of it, but I'm sure I've seen it objected to in the past.) —Josiah Rowe (talk • contribs) 08:57, 9 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Augusto Pinochet

His health had been deteriorating for the past few months. I don't think his death is that unexpected, given his age. I'm removing it from ITN, unless I see some opposition to this. Nishkid64 17:52, 10 December 2006 (UTC)

It has been discussed on WP:ITN/C, and if I have interpreted the discussion correctly, Pinochet met criterion C, the effect on current events. He's still a Chilean senator, the trial against him was ongoing, etc. I endorse his death being posted on ITN. Aecis ^{Dancing to electro-pop like a robot from 1984.} 17:58, 10 December 2006 (UTC)

He has died, but it's current wording if awful. It doesn't even say who he is and you can see an unclosed ]. --TheTallOne 18:04, 10 December 2006 (UTC) - In addition, the article does not cover this subject well - only a paragraph can be seen about the events occuring over the past few weeks and if this is going to be put up, I would change the wording to something more like: Former Chileian president Augusto Pinochet dies aged 91, following a heart attack just seven days before.

(edit conflict) He made a statement a few weeks ago saying that he accepts all the blame for the tyranny after the Chilean coup in 1973. I had added it to ITN myself, but it was subsequently removed because it wasn't discussed much in the article itself. He knew he was going to die soon, and he made that statement, which is why I don't think his death should have been on ITN. However, I can see your reasoning, so I put it back up for now. Nishkid64 18:11, 10 December 2006 (UTC)

Okay, I added the Chilean president bit. Nishkid64 18:18, 10 December 2006 (UTC)

What is the criterion to labelling him as Chilean "president" and not as "dictator"? His government was a dictatorship; he's in the List of dictators; as has been pointed out, he admitted of being "politically responsible" for the atrocities committed during his régime; as far as I know, legitimate Presidents, the ones who deserve to be called so, don't have to explicitly admit "political responsibility" because that's implicit. He has done it, so was a dictator and should be labelled as such. Amorim Parga 21:19, 10 December 2006 (UTC)

Yeah, I was originally going to put that, but I wasn't totally sure so I just didn't. Anyway, from your evidence, I've changed it to "Former Chilean dictatorial president" Nishkid64 21:29, 10 December 2006 (UTC)

Please keep in mind that WP:ITN, perhaps more than other parts of wikipedia, has to respect the neutral point of view. There's also no space on ITN to deal with all the nuances, sources, references etc. as to what constitutes a dictatorship, which definitions are used for a dictatorship, why Pinochet meets those criteria, etc. What we can say for sure is that Pinochet held the office of the presidency of Chile. Whether his policies constituted a dictatorship is not for ITN. Aecis ^{Dancing to electro-pop like a robot from 1984.} 22:27, 10 December 2006 (UTC)

I didn't put it in the first place because of NPOV, but I thought it would be accepted, since all of this was true. Anyway, I removed it now. Nishkid64 22:38, 10 December 2006 (UTC)

His regime is often associated with dictatorship (a.o. by me), so it's not an uncommon association. But this is already described in the article. I don't think it is needed on ITN as well. Aecis ^{Dancing to electro-pop like a robot from 1984.} 22:41, 10 December 2006 (UTC)

Okay, at least now I know for the future. :-P Nishkid64 22:56, 10 December 2006 (UTC)

I don't believe the current wording – Augusto Pinochet, 91-year-old former Chilean president, dies one week after suffering a heart attack – sounds very good. The interjection of 91-year-old former Chilean president sounds especially awkward. -- tariqabjotu 23:13, 10 December 2006 (UTC)

What about "Former Chilean president Augusto Pinochet (91) dies one week after suffering a heart attack"? Aecis ^{Dancing to electro-pop like a robot from 1984.} 23:28, 10 December 2006 (UTC)

I like it. I've added the word "age" and performed the edit. —David Levy 23:39, 10 December 2006 (UTC)

Looks good now. Nishkid64 23:41, 10 December 2006 (UTC)

Please change president for dictator. Pinochet was not elected democratically and he dissolved Chilean Congress upon rising to power through a military coup d'etat. He is a dictator by definition. At best, he is a de-facto head of state, but not president.--Thor Waldsen 16:29, 11 December 2006 (UTC)

He was a dictator, and we all agree on that. However, we don't want to bring in POV into ITN, so we're keeping it as president. If people want to know if he was a dictator or not, they can go to the article. Nishkid64 21:24, 11 December 2006 (UTC)

"President" is NOT neutral. "Head of state" is acceptable. Please change. ☆ CieloEstrellado 06:27, 12 December 2006 (UTC)

As I said on your talk page, he was the 30th president of Chile. I mean, I can go either way on this, but I think it's fine as it is. Nishkid64 23:37, 12 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Kofi Annan

I've added an item about Kofi Annan's final speech in office. In diplomatic terms, the speech is actually quite a strong rebuke of US foreign policy (and is noted as such by the BBC), but in the interests of NPOV I tried to reflect Annan's actual diplomatic language. (Kofi Annan has, of course, been updated.) —Josiah Rowe (talk • contribs) 20:01, 11 December 2006 (UTC)

I think it's a great addition to ITN. It's both internationally appealing, and it follows ITN candidate guidelines. Nishkid64 21:26, 11 December 2006 (UTC)

I think the wording could be changed a bit to reflect NPOV. It seems to grant Annan's assumption that the U.S. has now abandoned its "historic commitments." Tfine80 22:39, 11 December 2006 (UTC)

Any suggestions for an improvement? (I had considered something like "...chides the United States for moving away from its historic commitments...", but decided that didn't accurately reflect his diplomatic language — even though that's how it's being universally interpreted.) —Josiah Rowe (talk • contribs) 22:50, 11 December 2006 (UTC)

As noted above, this text is blatantly POV and suggests that the U.S. has abandoned its commitments to human rights. /Slarre 00:25, 12 December 2006 (UTC)

Would it be better to say "...suggests that the United States has abandoned its commitments to human rights and multilateralism"? Annan's actual words are "When it [America] appears to abandon its own ideals and objectives, its friends abroad are naturally troubled and confused." My question above was a legitimate one: any suggested improvements would be welcome, and I'm sure that I or another admin can incorporate them. This is a wiki, after all. —Josiah Rowe (talk • contribs) 04:38, 12 December 2006 (UTC)

Why not just simply state that he criticised the U.S. in his speech? We don't need to go into details here. /Slarre 13:25, 12 December 2006 (UTC)

The bit on Kofi Anan and his speech is loaded in my opinion. There is no article regarding his speech, yet someone took the liberty of noting how critical he was of the United States. He didn't talk about anything else? Again, his stance on the US might actually be noteworthy if there was an article to properly back it up - it's editorializing otherwise. --Haizum μολὼν λαβέ 09:20, 12 December 2006 (UTC) [copied from Talk:Main Page#Loaded: In the news. 64.229.220.121 16:27, 12 December 2006 (UTC)]

Well, his criticism of the US is the aspect of the speech that major media sources have focused on, so I think it's not a "liberty" to do the same. —Josiah Rowe (talk • contribs) 18:54, 12 December 2006 (UTC)

The use of the ad populum justification is inherently POV. --Haizum μολὼν λαβέ 06:59, 13 December 2006 (UTC)

While I don't think Kofi's speech deserves its own article, I do agree that there may be a bit of "editorializing" on ITN. --64.229.220.121 16:31, 12 December 2006 (UTC)

As I've said twice now, all suggestions for a more neutral wording are welcome. —Josiah Rowe (talk • contribs) 18:54, 12 December 2006 (UTC)

ITN items don't have to stem from novel articles, just updated ones- although this often comes down to a matter of opinion, unfortunately. Annan's biography is updated to reflect his speech and therefore the piece is legitimate. I would certainly say it's noteworthy (to paraphrase the ITN guidelines, "of internation interest..."). It could be shortened, but he has obviously deliberately used diplomatic language and I think we should reflect that intent here as well when reporting- criticism is too strong a word in my opinion. Badgerpatrol 16:35, 12 December 2006 (UTC)

Would it be better to say "encourages the United States to follow its historic commitments" instead of "return to"? He does say that the U.S. appears to have abandoned its own ideals and objectives. However, I think that if we say baldly "Kofi Annan ... suggests that the United States has abandoned its historic commitments to multilateralism and human rights" it might misrepresent his constructive tone. Once again, suggestions for a better, more neutral wording are welcome. —Josiah Rowe (talk • contribs) 18:54, 12 December 2006 (UTC)

Suggestion: why not quote Annan? That is, use his own words in the final line instead of "encourages...". That makes it clear ITN isn't endorsing his views, simply repeating them. (Something not clear in the present version). Mikker ^(...) 19:35, 12 December 2006 (UTC)

How about "Outgoing United Nations Secretary-General Kofi Annan (pictured), in his final speech in office, encourages the United States to provide global leadership in the multilateral tradition of Harry S. Truman"? (Having read the speech; the current version most certainly can't stay... it's clearly POV and OR). Mikker ^(...) 21:09, 12 December 2006 (UTC)

Alternatively, "Outgoing United Nations Secretary-General Kofi Annan (pictured), in his final speech in office, encourages the United States to provide global leadership whilst respecting the principles of "collective responsibility, global solidarity, the rule of law, mutual accountability, and multilateralism"". (the last part is a quote from the speech, see this). Mikker ^(...) 21:13, 12 December 2006 (UTC)

Good idea, Mikkerpikker. I can support either of these — but since it seems my judgement was a bit off in this case, I don't know that I should be the one to choose between these two alternatives. Does anyone have a preference? (They both seem accurate to me.) —Josiah Rowe (talk • contribs) 22:43, 12 December 2006 (UTC)

Ummm... although the second version is somewhat better, it may be a bit too wordy. That said, the first version places undue weight on Truman - Annan praises him, but this story isn't noteworthy because of that. The second version more accurately reflects Annan's goal it seems to me. Mikker ^(...) 22:56, 12 December 2006 (UTC)

I've made that adjustment, and linked most of the concepts Annan spoke about in his quote. I was a bit unsure about linking to collective responsibility (doctrine), because that article doesn't have much about the application of the term in international relations, but I reckon people who know more about that than I do can take the opportunity to improve that article. —Josiah Rowe (talk • contribs) 23:28, 12 December 2006 (UTC)

This item is way too long. —Centrx→talk • 23:52, 12 December 2006 (UTC)

It's long because it's tough to be succinct and accurately reflect diplomatic language. Any suggestions for a shorter version that's NPOV and accurate? —Josiah Rowe (talk • contribs) 23:57, 12 December 2006 (UTC)

How about "Outgoing United Nations Secretary-General Kofi Annan gives his final speech in office, widely interpreted as a criticism of the unilateralist policies of the George W. Bush administration."? Is that better? —Josiah Rowe (talk • contribs) 00:01, 13 December 2006 (UTC)

WP:WEASEL. I'd go with the Truman version then... and, yeah, after seeing it on the main page, I think Centrx is right. Mikker ^(...) 00:07, 13 December 2006 (UTC)

Pharos has cut it down, and I suppose it's OK now. —Josiah Rowe (talk • contribs) 00:23, 13 December 2006 (UTC)

Hate to carry on about it... but the current version doesn't make very much sense to be honest. What does it mean to "respect multilateralism"? It should either be "respect the principle of multilateralism" or "encourages the United States to provide multilateral global leadership." Mikker ^(...) 00:42, 13 December 2006 (UTC)

And I hate to be overdefensive of my own language, but isn't "multilateralism" by definition a principle? Discussion about the need to "respect multilateralism" is pretty common anyway, isn't it?--Pharos 00:51, 13 December 2006 (UTC)

Not really, multilateralism is both a description of a state of affairs and a moral princinple. Annan urged the US to follow the moral principle. Mikker ^(...) 01:03, 13 December 2006 (UTC)

I see what you mean, but isn't his intention clear from the context? I don't disagree with you in principle, I'm just trying to reduce unnecessary verbiage.--Pharos 01:37, 13 December 2006 (UTC)

(I think I'll make this my last post on this). I probably went too far when I said 'it doesn't make sense' but I do think my version is somewhat clearer. It's not that n.b. tho; I'll leave it up to you to decide, oh One With Tools. :) Mikker ^(...) 01:54, 13 December 2006 (UTC)

Maybe this entry should be taken down altogether. It doesn't seem as though a short, comprehensive wording of what Annan said is possible. In that case, the question is whether this topic is ITN material. Aecis ^{Dancing to electro-pop like a robot from 1984.} 00:54, 13 December 2006 (UTC)

• I tend to question whether this is really that important of an update (it's doubtful that in 5 years this speech will still have a separate section in the Kofi Annan article), but I don't think the particular characterization of his speech is that difficult of an issue. Currently the discussion between Mikkerpikker and myself is whether "multilateralism" or "the principle of multilateralism" is preferable.--Pharos 01:37, 13 December 2006 (UTC)

I believe this discussion is over for the most part, but I would just like to express one point: When creating a news headline, it is not acceptable to use an ad populum justification to editorialize it. If 'the news' decides to focus on an aspect of a story, that is their agenda, not Wikipedia's. Do not parrot. --Haizum μολὼν λαβέ 07:07, 13 December 2006 (UTC)

I read the speech myself, and found the sections criticizing US policy (in diplomatic language) to be the most noteworthy aspects of it. Perhaps it was an error to justify that judgment by pointing out that it was shared by major media sources reporting on the speech, perhaps not. But I still maintain that if the UN Secretary-General chooses to use his final speech in office to criticize the United States, that is appropriate material for "in the news", and it is precisely because of that criticism that it is noteworthy. —Josiah Rowe (talk • contribs) 07:22, 13 December 2006 (UTC)

I don't disagree with you - many stories are notable in themselves and the media can't help but report them heavily, and I'm sincerely glad you read the speech - I believe you're part of the minority who actually have. I only wanted to stress the importance of resisting the temptation to follow major media focus simply for the sake of. I realize that such an ideal is difficult to adhere to in all the chaos of world events, but it's an ideal nevertheless. --Haizum μολὼν λαβέ 08:59, 13 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Ipswich murders

There's currently a discussion about putting up the Ipswich area murders. Please join the discussion at Wikipedia:In the news section on the Main Page/Candidates#12 December. Aecis ^{Dancing to electro-pop like a robot from 1984.} 00:36, 13 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Pinochet

It is disturbing for me to see Wikipedia calling Pinochet a "president" on its main page. Only the pinochetistas call him that. If you read the international media, all call him a "dictator" or "general" or "head of state" but never "president." Can anybody please, at least, change it to "de facto president" or "de facto head of state"? It reads now like Wikipedia is taking sides. Thanks! ☆ CieloEstrellado 02:27, 13 December 2006 (UTC)

That's pretty much the same as calling Robert Mugabe or Hugo Chavez a president. It's their official title. If you notice on the main page, Saddam Hussein is also called a president. 151.196.27.12 02:35, 13 December 2006 (UTC)

Chávez was democratically elected. Pinochet was not. There's a world of difference. ☆ CieloEstrellado 02:37, 13 December 2006 (UTC)

We do (and should) call people by their official titles. The title "president" doesn't only apply to democratically elected leaders. (Witness Mugabe). Besides, alternative titles ("dictator" etc.) reflect a bias and therefore violates Wikipedia policy. Mikker ^(...) 02:43, 13 December 2006 (UTC)

I'm changing it to "head of state", as that doesn't carry any POV (I think) with it, and it describes Pinochet better. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Nishkid64 (talk • contribs) 03:16, 13 December 2006 (UTC).

That's fair enough... hadn't thought of that. Mikker ^(...) 04:22, 13 December 2006 (UTC)