User talk:Xiong

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[edit] Do NOT edit this page -- run, don't walk, to the exit

I've been very foolish. I saw several months ago that Wikipedia was overrun by children -- some grown, but still immature in mind -- some simply very young -- some frankly autistic and only marginally sane. I saw that the Community was in a tailspin, that the wise Old Heads had left long ago, and that the rats were running loose, chewing holes in everything and pissing in any corner they pleased. I left.

At that time, I thought nothing could be done at all, not by anybody. But I carelessly returned to comment on my departure -- an obviously foolish thing to do, of course. And I remarked that only Jimbo could possibly salvage the Project, and I didn't think he would. Then I realized I had not asked him directly; so intellectual honestly led me to do so.

His initial reply was promising, and I allowed myself to think there was hope after all. I rationalized my hope; I said it was not possible for all the wise heads to be gone so quickly. Certainly, it will be a long time before even a boatload of rats is able to destroy everything that has been built, so there is yet much good that can be salvaged. A strong stand, taken now, might just stem the tide of rising greed, self-aggrandizement, love of petty politics, ignorance, and stupidity.

What a silly man I am.

I don't know what Jimmy Wales is doing these days. He says he is still watching over Wikipedia; but if so, his hands must be tied; at least, I prefer that way of looking at the matter to thinking that he simply is unable to see how far matters have gotten out of hand. Perhaps he will step in and clean up; but I seriously doubt it. His replies to me have settled into a fairly predictable pattern of "Wow, that's really interesting; but I'm so busy these days." Fair enough; if I were in his shoes, I'd have sold out my every position long ago, and moved on. Hasn't Jimbo done enough?

I'm a professional -- sometimes I wonder what kind, since I have so very many skills, and I have yet to figure out how they all fit together. But I have been very highly paid to solve problems across a wide range of disciplines; it is not unusual for Somebody to say to me that I am the smartest person in the room, or that I have brought him or her actual enlightenment. I tend not to take these commendations seriously. I think of myself only as a man who knows a great many things, because he has spent all his life learning, with an open mind -- reading, talking and listening, and trying things with his own hands. If I have any special talents, I think it must only be that I have a very sticky memory; and that I'm able to make connections among the things I remember, no matter how far apart they may seem to others. Perhaps that is intelligence; I really don't know. I only know that I'm very, very much better at a large number of things than most people I've met -- and that there is another level of excellence in all these things, that is as far above my level as I am above an infant, finger-painting with his own shit. I don't feel smart.

But I do work very hard and very honestly, and I know for a fact that my solutions do work, because others tell me so and pay well for them, at least on occasion. They heed my suggestions and they use my tools, and they solve their problems, and they thank me for it, pay cash, and go on to do good work of their own.

I have put my mind, heart, and soul into this Project for several months now; I have given it my very best. I have not shunned the difficult, nor have I (for the most part) yielded to the temptation of personal amusement or self-promotion. I've never imagined my work to be perfect; in most cases, I thought I'd only made a good start, and I looked to others to continue to build on it -- this is a wiki, after all; my understanding was that collaboration was the key, that we worked together to improve, to create something better than any one of us could build on his own.

Instead, I have watched gibbering lunatics, spoiled children, and demons from a dark hell burn, loot, and shred not only my work, but that of other good people who blunder in here, hoping as I did to do a little good public service. I've stood here as I, and these others, have been humiliated, reviled, and insulted by individuals I would not cross the street to urinate upon if I saw their hair was on fire.

It's hard to be in business; competition is rough and expenses enormous. My daily work puts me under great stress, and -- unfortunately -- I must often compromise, making very difficult decisions about how much work I can actually afford to do for a given client, considering her budget and the time available. I'm not always happy -- indeed, I'm rarely satisfied with my own work, often spending far too much time perfecting a solution for a client who will not appreciate the refinement. I have little free time, and I should probably be spending all of that so-called free time looking for more clients. Such is the nature of business.

I do have to take some time every day to do work without compromise, purely good work, straight ahead achievement. Obviously, I can't do this to a schedule; I have to fit it in when and as I can. I used to look forward to contributing to Wikipedia and to WikiMedia Commons, knowing that whatever I added would be available not just to a small group (who might or might not have use for it), but to all humanity (of whom surely Somebody would benefit).

I certainly did not come here to add to my burden of stress. For a while, I suppose, I was fooling myself, thinking that once the marching morons had been beaten off, us thoughtful, serious types could go on with our work. But that's just wishful thinking. There aren't any serious people left here, or very few; and the morons are firmly in control.

I have discovered I cannot even upload a deck of playing card images to Commons without some fool coming along and crapping all over weeks of planning and hard work. I've spent the last few days walking around with a burning black ball of bile in my throat; I can't eat, sleep, or manage my business responsibly; I'm short, even nasty, with my family.

If I were willing to tolerate this kind of abuse for money, I'd be rich; there are always jobs for people willing to suffer high stress and rude indignity while quietly giving of their expertise. But I'm not; and I am damned if I will do it for no pay. If I thought there was the least chance of pulling this Community out of the behavioral sink it is spiraling into, I'd stick with it no matter the cost; but it's coming clear to me that there's no hope at all -- not from the New Fish, not from the Young Turks, not from the Old Heads, not from the Board and not from Jimbo. Anyone who ever thought something might be going wrong here, and that they ought to do something about that, left the building long ago

Time for me to join the wise ones.

— Xiong熊talk* 09:50, 19 September 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Editing anyway

As this is your talk page, I thought i'd try to edit it anyway. Break all rules and all that :-)

For my part, I've read the Toby proposal several times (despite it being closed for quite some time already), and must admit I love the idea. Too bad it didnt pass, and even more unfortunate that you have left the project (because of that i presume?).

Anyway, if by any chance you read this message (once a wikiholic, always a wikiholic?), consider it a compliment for your work. Greets, The Minister of War 21:12, 17 November 2005 (UTC)

The idiocy with which Toby was greeted was only one insult -- certainly egregious, but only one.

The last straw was when, after I had spent literally weeks and many sleepless nights figuring out how to categorize playing cards, a certain User:dbenbenn childishly trashed all my hard work in one day -- without asking, without telling, without comment on talk, and without comment from any other user on Commons. I sweated blood scanning perfect images of a standard poker deck for upload and tested my cat scheme using low-res copies. Now, the cats are all screwed up and the high-res images are sitting on my hard drive, and there they shall stay. — Xiong熊talk* 13:25, 29 January 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Get a Grip

Get a grip... I'm a uni student and last time I checked Wikipedia is an amazing resource, and it's growing every day (I use it almost as much as google, perhaps more). craigTheBrit 15:27, 11 January 2006 (UTC)

I don't believe I have lost my grip; I'm firmly in control of the facts. Wikipedia is an amazing resource, and I too consult it regularly. I will continue to use it until it becomes completely worthless or until a more honest project supercedes it. I don't expect that will happen for a few years yet.

You don't seem to understand my perspective. I've never thought that the Corpus, as it stands today, is uselessly corrupted. Reviewers have found some disturbing biases, but all references are biased in one way or another. New articles are being added constantly -- as statistical analysis reveals, exponentially -- and while they are increasingly trivial, they do nothing to destroy the usefulness of what exists.

But I don't worry about today; I worry about 10 and 20 and 100 years from now.

Knowledge is Power -- and a comprehensive store of Mankind's knowledge is our most powerful resource -- not for you and I today, but for the future of our species. For the last 10,000 years, men have been writing things down; these writings have been collected in libraries public and private. These storehouses of knowledge have been relatively inaccessible to humanity at large, and the ignorance in which the common man wallows is the tyrant's shield and sword.

You may have difficulty grasping the true importance of Wikipedia if you have lived all your life in the Golden Land. I have seen villagers who know nothing at all about the nearest big city, only rumor and fantasy; these innocents are the puppets of the rich, the powerful, the corrupt, the evil. They know they are poor and oppressed, but they know not how poor, how trodden upon, or how incredibly wealthy and complex is the outside world. Can you imagine a world in which literally every human being has access to the facts?

I will tell you of my dream: Titanium kiosks sunk to bedrock, spaced at 1 kilometer intervals worldwide. Each kiosk grants instant access to all of the great store of knowledge Man has accumulated -- real knowledge, what is, not blather and bullshit and ads for penis lengtheners. Man, woman, child, slave, or king -- anyone can claw his way to a kiosk and discover the Truth. No dictator or greedy robber baron, no inhuman corporation, can possibly destroy or guard them all. The Truth shall set you free!

Well, Wikipedia (in its present form) is no longer a candidate for this apotheosis. As time goes by, the acrimony increases; the politics overwhelm good sense; and the Corpus slowly degrades. Right now, I'm praying for a swift decline -- the sooner it becomes obvious that this Project has failed, the sooner that a better one will get underway. But I don't think my wish will be granted. — Xiong熊talk* 13:56, 29 January 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Just to let you know

I just bumped into Wikipedia:Xiong's stats. And that is absolutely amazing stuff!!! Briliant, and priceless. I am just very sad you have left... I could give you a bunch of barnstars for that... Renata 05:27, 14 January 2006 (UTC)

Actually, I also agree partly with Xiong's "Brilliant Creation" - but there is an old saying: if you torture the data long enough, they shall accept anything. Therefore, there is another saying: commonsense is very uncommon. True wikipedians do not leave, as they have the ability and tenacity to work collaboratively, in an environment of trust and goodwill. --Bhadani 07:02, 15 January 2006 (UTC)

Assuming that there is such an environment, of course. And assuming there is such a thing as a true Scotsman. For my part, i think its a shame he left. His contributions were too many to count. The Minister of War ^(Peace) 10:41, 15 January 2006 (UTC)

Excuse me?? Where were you, Bhadani, with your environment of trust and goodwill, when I was being fucked over and my good work was being trashed? Where were you when other editors -- better men and women than I, more peaceful, scholarly, and less able to tolerate confrontation -- were tarred, feathered, and run out on a rail? Where were you when we abandoned this behavioral sink in tears of anger and frustration?

If you define "true Wikipedians" as the editors who remain, then you speak not of trusting men of goodwill, but of spoiled children who delight in door games and clique-ism. This Community is in the control of those members who have the most time to waste and the least life outside of the Project -- almost, by definition, the most useless, poorly adapted, antisocial, useless members of the human race. Some of these are idiot savants who manage limited success here and in no other place; others are sheer deadweight; many are pure internal enemies of the Project's cornerstone goal. The bulk of the good work done here is by people who drop in, contribute, and depart.

And no, my contributions are not uncountable. They are, however, sadly few -- and unhappily weighted toward talk in defense of my substantial work. What might I have done had I been left in peace to work? — Xiong熊talk* 14:15, 29 January 2006 (UTC)

I can understand your frustration, anguish, and anger; and I certainly feel that perhaps you are speaking from your heart. Still I think that you may again choose to contribute and continue. It speaks volumes about your closeness with the Project as you came (back?) and opened up your heart. However, I do not agree with the premise that people who are failure in the real life choose to be here. --Bhadani 15:09, 29 January 2006 (UTC)

Of course not! You're still here! — Xiong熊talk* 01:29, 5 April 2006 (UTC)

[edit] TfD nomination of Template:Markups

Template:Markups has been nominated for deletion. You are invited to comment on the discussion at Wikipedia:Templates for deletion#Template:Markups. Thank you. —Phil | Talk 13:24, 25 January 2006 (UTC)

[edit] TfD nomination of Template:Helpbox

Template:Helpbox has been nominated for deletion. You are invited to comment on the discussion at Wikipedia:Templates for deletion#Template:Helpbox. Thank you. —Phil | Talk 13:29, 25 January 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Image copyright problem with Image:Math area map.png

Thanks for uploading Image:Math area map.png. However, the image may soon be deleted unless we can determine the copyright holder and copyright status. The Wikimedia Foundation is very careful about the images included in Wikipedia because of copyright law (see Wikipedia's Copyright policy).

The copyright holder is usually the creator, the creator's employer, or the last person who was transferred ownership rights. Copyright information on images is signified using copyright templates. The three basic license types on Wikipedia are open content, public domain, and fair use. Find the appropriate template in Wikipedia:Image copyright tags and place it on the image page like this: {{TemplateName}}.

Please signify the copyright information on any other images you have uploaded or will upload. Remember that images without this important information can be deleted by an administrator. If you have any questions, feel free to contact me. Thank you. BRossow 03:17, 18 February 2006 (UTC)

I created it and said so when I uploaded. Unused, though, so who cares? — Xiong熊talk* 01:28, 5 April 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Love the stats

I really enjoyed looking at your statistics page. I think that there are incredible possibilities for running statistics on Wikipedia that are only just beginning to be realized. An example: I just ran into your statistics after posting my own regarding the percentage of WP articles that are stubs. Sorry you've left! --Dantheox 06:26, 1 March 2006 (UTC)

Stats analysis cannot be improved without technical support. I asked plenty of people for that, including Jimbo himself, who patronized me for a couple weeks before deciding I had too many ideas. At the moment, I wouldn't work on it even if I had a developer bringing me hot coffee on the hour. — Xiong熊talk* 01:26, 5 April 2006 (UTC)

I just want to let you know that there are those who deeply appreciate your efforts - like me. But don't get discouraged by low visibility of that support - for most people statistics and studying Wikipedia itself is unfortunately completly below radar. It's a shame that activity of Wikipedia:Wikidemia is so low, but I hope that a statistical analysis or related project would show some optimistic (growing) trends :) --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus ^Talk 15:38, 24 April 2006 (UTC)

[edit] attacks

Please see Wikipedia's no personal attacks policy: There is no excuse for personal attacks on other contributors. Do not make them. Comment on content, not on the contributor; personal attacks damage the community and deter users. Note that you may be blocked for disruption. Please stay cool and keep this in mind while editing. Thanks, Pegasus1138^{Talk | Contribs | Email} ---- 10:43, 19 March 2006 (UTC)

This is your last warning. If you continue to make personal attacks, you may be blocked for disruption. Pegasus1138^{Talk | Contribs | Email} ---- 10:46, 19 March 2006 (UTC)

Note: I am not sure what these warnings are replying to. it suggests that repeated personal attacks were made between 10:43 and 10:46 on March 19, but there seem to be no edits by Xiong at that time, and no personal attacks. The Minister of War ^(Peace) 10:36, 21 March 2006 (UTC)

I see several edits by him at that time, notably here, where he refers to fellow editors as "monkeys" and "cretins", and here, where he calls them "beasts". Nandesuka 20:14, 21 March 2006 (UTC)

Bring it on, man. You can't kill a ghost. I left here a long time ago. I still use the tool when I want some quick background on something and I'm not too particular about quality -- and you can block all you like and that won't affect me. For that matter, until you all decide to close ranks, I can edit anything I damn well please, anonymously -- and I double dare you to block me then. You can't get rid of Willy alnd there's not a thing you can do about me, either. Just be glad I have no interest any longer in fixing this bust-down carnie wagon. — Xiong熊talk* 01:16, 5 April 2006 (UTC)

OK. Nandesuka 02:08, 5 April 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Toby

I take the above as an encouraging sign that you are still around, though unfortunately still angry and frustrated.

As a newbie, though one who understands the concept of wikis, I am sorry that I was not here six months ago, and able to support you in your comment that Toby should not be shot down until someone had proposed something better. I cannot comment on how easy it would be to implement, but I particularly liked the ideas (for the "original" Toby) that:

• anybody could nominate anything to be Tobyed (very appropriate for a wiki)
• that there was no characterisation or value judgement
• those who did not use Toby would not even know whether a page was "Tobyed"
• it would only interfere with displayed content for those who chose to use it
• it would warn them, but offer them a choice whether to view or not
• items would be un-Tobyed according to (amongst other things) the number of people who had Tobyed them; not quite NPOV, but a good approximation

I was irritated by the person who suggested that Toby was only a valid proposal if at least one editor would use it: you were clear that you would not use it yourself, and neither would I. But the editors are only 5% of the total users.

I feel it is a valid tool for some tweenagers/teenagers: those old enough to be responsible, but young enough that they do not want to know everything nasty (I know that some children/adults reach these stages in reverse order, but not all do!). They could be allowed access, but would make their own decisions whether to access an item they might not like, having been warned by Toby that some people had found it objectionable. I also believe that my parents, who having lived through WW2 and other bad times feel entitled to avoid nastiness when they can, would use it in the same way.

People like them are probably underrepresented in the editorship, and are certainly unlikely to find their way to discussions on censorship (indeed I only arrived at the page myself by a series of coincidences). It is unfortunate that development of your idea (and whatever, hopefully even better, tool comes from it) has been delayed by the views of 40 people who are far from representative of the people who would benefit.

My guess is that 5 - 10% of readers would use it, and that it would encourage many people to use it who are now put off. A work encompassing all knowledge is no benefit if people fail to use it. I hope that someone with a thicker skin than you or me, and more free time, takes the idea forward. 81.179.88.226 00:50, 21 March 2006 (UTC) Sorry - I thought I was signed in: I am Enginear 00:54, 21 March 2006 (UTC)

Screw Proposal Toby. Aftermarket Toby is available to anybody who wants it -- and nobody can stop him. — Xiong熊talk* 01:18, 5 April 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Template:Helpbox

Hey Xiong,

Good to see you up and about again.

You're right, the template is rather useless where it is now. I do think it would be a great addition to the toolbox of the Wiki, but have been hesitant to push forward. First because I'm not really good in coding boxes, but more importantly because I'm not sure I have the time to do the hard work which is necessary to incorporate it properly within the Wiki.

Having said that, I would be willing to put some work into it if we were to do it together. Especially if we could convince projects which also use boxes to do some of the work themselves, we would be able to cover a lot of ground.

Anyway, as far as I'm concerned its your baby, and thus your call. Without you, I'll probably not spring into action, but if you want to push forward i'm certainly willing to help!

Greets, The Minister of War ^(Peace) 10:17, 21 March 2006 (UTC)

I'm neither up nor about. Helpbox worked just fine; it was a darling, nothing to fix. Undelete it and you're set.

It's not my baby, though; I wrote it here and gave it to the Community, which then chucked it in the trash. Ask me again why I call them fools. Improve it if you can. — Xiong熊talk* 01:22, 5 April 2006 (UTC)

I've solved your puzzler posed here on removing the need for parameters in {{helpbox}}. I don't reckon that you're still offering the t-shirt (and I can't say that I really want one), but I figured that there's a slim chance that you'd be interested in knowing that it'd been solved. With respect, Blackcap (talk) 05:00, 5 April 2006 (UTC)

No, no, never mind. Bollocks. There's still a few problems, so sorry for bothering. But I'll have it soon. Blackcap (talk) 05:05, 5 April 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Aftermarket Toby

Toby is one of the most extraordinary, well-thought out, and genuinely wiki ideas I have come across in this project. Proposal Toby is dead (alas), long live Aftermarket Toby! The only problem I can see is that although nobody can stop Aftermarket Toby, at the moment nobody seems to be starting him. Is there anybody who is interested in bringing him to life? TheGrappler 22:36, 10 April 2006 (UTC)

[edit] A favor please

Hello, do you remember me? You had spared few moments during my RfA and opposed the same. I could become an administrator, and sometimes I had talked with you. I would request you to please spare fem moments for me, and favor me with your comments and suggestions (here please) on my performance as a wikipedian. Let us continue to build the Better than the Best global encyclopedia. Thank you and regards. --Bhadani 10:37, 29 April 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Wikiproject Color

Hi Xiong, I saw your name on Wikipedia:WikiProject_Color. It looks like you spent a lot of time on it. It seems to have been dormant for a while, even though there was a lot of great work and discussion already done. I'm looking to start it back up again. Care to join me? --Laura S 00:14, 19 May 2006 (UTC)

[edit] 熊

熊

Here's a big bear signature for you. I seems as if you are leaving, as stated on your page...--Tdxiang 10:50, 6 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Image:Shitpile.jpg listed for deletion

[edit] Image:---6---.png listed for deletion

[edit] Proposal on Notability

Because you're a member of the Association of Inclusionist Wikipedians, I'm notifying you that the inclusionist proposal Wikipedia:Non-notabilityl is in progress to define the role of notability in articles. Please help us make this successful! Also note the proposal Wikipedia:Importance is a deletionist proposla that seeks to officially introduce notabiltiy for the first time. --Ephilei 04:45, 4 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Template:Markups

Hi, I'm writing about User:Xiong/Template:Markups. This looks like a pretty useful tool; in fact I use it from time to time myself -- I even fixed it a little, you got the wrong code for ~, the tilde. It looks a little broken and poorly formatted but I think it can be salvaged.

You seem to have stalked off in anger but if there's any chance you return from time to time, I'd like you to reconsider your departure. Maybe you just needed a vacation; I'm sure I do from time to time. See if you can't put your talents to work with a little less radical confrontation.

Meanwhile, I think Markups should be in templatespace. You wrote a lot of templates, I see; why didn't you put this there, too? John Reid 14:56, 29 October 2006 (UTC)

Wait, I see; this was a template and got deleted. Why? John Reid 15:00, 29 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Image:Epileptic medusa 16.gif listed for deletion

An image or media file that you uploaded or altered, Image:Epileptic medusa 16.gif, has been listed at Wikipedia:Images and media for deletion. Please look there to see why this is (you may have to search for the title of the image to find its entry), if you are interested in its not being deleted. Thank you. —Nv8200p talk 04:01, 11 December 2006 (UTC)