Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Football (soccer) in Australia

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WikiProject on Football in Australia The article on WikiProject Football (soccer) in Australia is supported by the WikiProject on Football (soccer) in Australia, which is an attempt to improve the quality and coverage of football (soccer) in Australia related articles on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, you can visit the project page; if you have any questions about the project or the article ratings below, please consult the FAQ.
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WikiProject Football (soccer) in Australia To-do:

Contents

[edit] Archives

[edit] Proposal to expand WikiProject A-League

[edit] Spiel

In starting this project, one thing I didn't realise at the time was the relatively poor coverage of football in Australia before/outside the A-League. User:Blackmissionary mentioned a while ago that it would be good if WP:A-L was to include the NSL, and I would like to expand this idea to the whole of football in Australia. Whilst the same aim would be achieved by simply starting a new project, I think that ultimately a large proportion of people who would contribute to a new project would be the same as the current members of WP:A-L. It would also save the hassle of spreading discussion that apply to both projects so that all members could have their say. Everything currently included in WP:A-L would be included in the new project, and those members who wish to continue focusing solely on A-League articles could easily do so. Please note that the "Australia" reference is 100% not against any New Zealand Knights, Football Kingz, etc information being involved in the project – but tacking "and some New Zealand stuff" on the end of the project name would be a bit messy. I have created a more formal proposed project page here, and if the members here choose to support this idea, I will add it to the project proposals list. – AlbinoMonkey (Talk) 08:27, 6 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Poll

[edit] Support

  1. Support Support – AlbinoMonkey (Talk) 08:27, 6 October 2006 (UTC)
  2. Rebecca 01:11, 7 October 2006 (UTC)
  3. Daniel.Bryant 01:15, 7 October 2006 (UTC)
  4. cj | talk 15:57, 7 October 2006 (UTC)
  5. Chuq 23:18, 7 October 2006 (UTC)
  6. Dibo 04:21, 9 October 2006 (UTC)
  7. Blackmissionary 00:04, 11 October 2006 (UTC)
  8. Kingutd 05:24, 19 October 2006 (UTC)
  9. Mattythewhite 06:55, 19 October 2006 (UTC)
  10. Hack 07:30, 19 October 2006 (UTC)
  11. Tiefighter 10:16, 19 October 2006 (UTC)
  12. Rakuten06 11:50, 19 October 2006 (UTC)
  13. Fedgin 11:14, 20 October 2006 (UTC)
  14. Rossoneri3 (talk • contribs) Rossoneri3 01:25, 21 October 2006 (UTC)
  15. Boltonfan22 04:51, 21 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Oppose

[edit] Neutral

[edit] Comments

  • Love the picture! Daniel.Bryant 01:16, 7 October 2006 (UTC)
  • I think WikiProject Australian football (soccer) would be a better name for the expanded project (it's less cumbersome).--cj | talk 15:57, 7 October 2006 (UTC)
    • yeh I thought the same thing, but had a feeling AFL fans would not be too happy with us using "Australian football". I'll ask over at WikiProject AFL. – AlbinoMonkey (Talk) 01:32, 9 October 2006 (UTC)
      • I was thinking Wikipedia:WikiProject football (soccer) in Australia. Daniel.Bryant 01:46, 9 October 2006 (UTC)
        • Well yeh that's what it stands as at the moment, but I agree with cj in that (1) it is a bit cumbersome, and (2) saying 'football in Australia' slightly implies we would be ignoring overseas Australian players. I guess we'll have to have another poll if this goes ahead. – AlbinoMonkey (Talk) 01:51, 9 October 2006 (UTC)
          • Well, my actual preference is for WP:WPJ Australian soccer, but I didn't dare suggest that first off in this forum ;).--cj | talk 03:09, 9 October 2006 (UTC)
            • WikiProject World Game :-) -- Chuq 04:56, 9 October 2006 (UTC)
              • Wikiproject World Game in Australia :D Daniel.Bryant 05:16, 9 October 2006 (UTC)
      • Oh great I've caused more trouble than I solved. :D WikiProject Football (soccer) in Australia it is, unless there are any really serious objections. I'll stick it on the proposed projects list once ten people have supported or a week has passed (general guideline is at least six for a wikiproject I think, which we've got now). – AlbinoMonkey (Talk) 06:33, 9 October 2006 (UTC)
        • I think WikiProject Australian football (soccer) is best, simple and uniform. The picture is awesome, bit of oldschool! Thanks AlbinoMonkey for remembering my idea and making it better! :) Blackmissionary 01:05, 11 October 2006 (UTC)
          • OK looks like we will need a poll of some kind after all. Tomorrow marks a week since I put this up, so I'll send out messages to those who haven't put in a vote for the project change, put it up on project proposals, then probably get the wheels rolling on the weekend. Cheers. – AlbinoMonkey (Talk) 05:53, 11 October 2006 (UTC)
  • Sorry been away for the weekend, and a bit bogged down with work for the next few days. Will get to it within the week, hopefully. – AlbinoMonkey (Talk) 11:20, 16 October 2006 (UTC)
    • Final steps being put in motion now. Please vote in the poll below also – AlbinoMonkey (Talk) 04:02, 19 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Name choice

Seems a name is not immediately obvious, so just sign under which one you think is best (add another if you wish; add your name to more than one if you want). Give it about a week.

[edit] WikiProject Football (soccer) in Australia

  1. – AlbinoMonkey (Talk) 04:02, 19 October 2006 (UTC)
  2. – Hack 04:37, 19 October 2006 (UTC)
  3. – Blackmissionary 07:12, 19 October 2006 (UTC)
  4. – Chuq 08:01, 19 October 2006 (UTC)
  5. – Daniel.Bryant 23:55, 19 October 2006 (UTC)
  6. – Fedgin 11:13, 20 October 2006 (UTC)
  7. – Rakuten06 12:12, 20 October 2006 (UTC)
  8. – Rossoneri3 Rossoneri3 01:26, 21 October 2006 (UTC)
  9. – Boltonfan22 03:26, 22 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] WikiProject Australian football (soccer)

  1. Kingutd 05:27, 19 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] WikiProject Soccer in Australia

[edit] WikiProject Australian soccer

  1. --cj | talk 08:54, 19 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Football (soccer) in Australia templates

I have created three four templates, in the format as per the WP Football template standard:

{{AUS fb general}} {{AUS fb natteams}} {{AUS fb A-League}} {{AUS fb states}}

This are shown in use together with {{fb start}} and {{fb end}} here:

  Football in Australia  v • d • e 

Governing body: Football Federation Australia | Former: Soccer Australia

National league: A-League | Former: National Soccer League
  National football teams of Australia  v • d • e 

Senior: Men's (Socceroos) | Women's (Maltildas)

Youth: Men's U23 (Olyroos) | Men's U20 (Young Socceroos)
Women's U20 (Young Matildas) | Men's U17 (Joeys)
  Hyundai A-League  v • d • e 

List of A-League champions | A-League all-time records

Seasons: 2005-06 | 2006-07

Teams:  Adelaide United | Central Coast Mariners | Melbourne Victory 
Newcastle Jets | New Zealand Knights | Perth Glory | Queensland Roar | Sydney FC 
  Football by state  v • d • e 
State Governing body Leagues
ACT Capital Football New South Wales Premier League
NSW Soccer NSW
Northern NSW Soccer Federation NBN State Soccer League
Vic Football Federation Victoria Victorian Premier League (Div 1)
Qld Football Queensland Brisbane Premier League (Div 1)
WA Football West Western Australia State League
SA Football Federation of South Australia South Australia Super League
Tas Football Federation Tasmania Southern and Northern Premier Leagues
NT Football Federation Northern Territory -

Of course it is possible to create more templates like this, for example on A-League you can see two of them in use with a third fb template. If people like them, I expect they will be added to relevant articles, ie. A-League related articles (seasons, clubs, etc) will have {{AUS fb general}} and {{AUS fb A-League}}; state governing bodies and leagues will have {{AUS fb general}} and {{AUS fb states}}. Football (soccer) in Australia will probably be the only article to have all three four.

I'm guessing {{AUS fb A-League}} will replace {{A-League teamlist}}, if there aren't any disagreements. -- Chuq 08:00, 22 October 2006 (UTC)

  • Two disagreements, The a-league clubs names are not in alphabetical order and the young matildas are not in national teams.

Boltonfan22 07:34, 23 October 2006 (UTC)

    • And mens U23 should have Olyroos next to them. Boltonfan22 07:37, 23 October 2006 (UTC)
  • Should there be an entry for Northern New South Wales under leagues and state governing bodies? They are separate from Soccer NSW and are a constituent federation of the FFA...--Hack 08:41, 23 October 2006 (UTC)
Fixed, fixed, fixed and fixed :P Anything else? I noticed the templates were tested on some other pages but were removed afterwards. Is it because (in the above example) the CCM template didn't fit? Do people agree with modifying the club templates to this format? -- Chuq 11:46, 23 October 2006 (UTC)
  • When i was testing the templates, I noticed the "disagreements" and i thought i better get them fixed before i placed the templates back on the CCM pages. The CCM template was fine. Boltonfan22 06:38, 24 October 2006 (UTC)
No problem. I think the general one should be split off into a "general" (FFA, SA, A-L, NSL links) and a "national teams" one. All Australian football articles should have {{AUS fb general}}, but articles on state football, state gov bodies, and state leagues do not need links to the Olyroos, Young Matildas, Joeys etc. -- Chuq 01:26, 26 October 2006 (UTC)
Done - what do people think? It would be feasible to also create one for each state, and one for each A-League team. I don't think this would be excess - because most articles would only have 2 or 3. For example:
In these examples:
  • {{AUS fb state Vic}} would have the same links as the "Vic" row of {{AUS fb states}}, plus links to the VPL and VSLD1 teams.
  • {{AUS fb A-League CCM}} would link to the existing team-by-season articles, as well as the stadium, coach, captain (and maybe the rest of the squad, is this over the top?). Such a template could also be placed on, say, Lawrie McKinna (coach) or Noel Spencer (captain), although there aren't any other football templates (of the same style) on those pages. -- Chuq 01:44, 26 October 2006 (UTC)
The CC Mariners page already has the squad list and year by year templates (as do most teams) so maybe we could just join them together and make them the same colour and size etc. That may be easier. Boltonfan22 02:53, 26 October 2006 (UTC)
Well, I haven't included the squad yet, but check out the Central Coast Mariners page to see how it looks. -- Chuq 06:14, 26 October 2006 (UTC)
I like it! Daniel.Bryant 12:22, 26 October 2006 (UTC)
I think {{AUS fb A-League CCM}} should be yellow. but the rest is great. Good work Chuq Boltonfan22 23:04, 26 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Delete old templates?

Glad to see the templates are popular :) The colours look great too. Are people OK with me deleting {{QRSeasonTemplate}} and so on, since they aren't in use anymore? -- Chuq 23:26, 29 October 2006 (UTC)
Yep. Consider them tagged as {{db-author}}, as I'm the creater and sole editor of them :D. For ease of deletion, the links down the side of User:Daniel.Bryant/A-LeagueSeasonTemplate are to the templates. Cheers, Daniel.Bryant [ T · C ] 05:50, 30 October 2006 (UTC)
I made sure there were no transclusions, and had them deleted. Daniel.Bryant [ T · C ] 08:16, 31 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Move to Wikipedia:WikiProject Football (soccer) in Australia

I've made the first steps on the expansion to WP:Football in Aus, the new project page is linked above. I'm currently working on the assessment and improving the A-League player project, it would be great if anyone could help with the following:

  • Populating the related pages list (nb generally don't list redirect pages - the idea of the list is to watch related changes to actual articles)
  • Creating a to-do list, and adding a few tasks to the open tasks template.
  • Creating a templates list of all templates related to the project.
  • Creating an awards list of all awards related to the project.
  • Find some way of archiving WikiProject A-League within the new project. See this for a list of this project's subpages (ignore the ones related to the player project... I'm redoing it a bit).
  • Create redirects from here to the new project, also go through what links here and make relevant changes.
  • Generally tidy up the new main page.
  • Create a userbox for participants?
  • Anything else you can think of...

It's a long list at the moment, any help or ideas would be much appreciated. Cheers – AlbinoMonkey (Talk) 06:50, 27 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Publicity

I think people should attempt to publicise the project on some forums and the like. I've already done The World Game Forum and the Victory forum. Blackmissionary 22:38, 28 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Confirmation of nationalities

I'm about 90% sure I got them all right, however a number of the coaches had me diving around for refs, or in one case guessing. Anyways, can someone just double-check that all the nationalities are right for the captains and coaches in the following, please:-

  Central Coast Mariners  v • d • e 

Home: Bluetongue Central Coast Stadium, Gosford, New South Wales

Coach: Scotland Lawrie McKinna | Captain: Australia Noel Spencer

Seasons: 2005-06 | 2006-07
  Adelaide United  v • d • e 

Home: Hindmarsh Stadium, Adelaide, South Australia

Coach: Australia John Kosmina | Captain: Australia Ross Aloisi

Seasons: 2005-06 | 2006-07
  Sydney FC  v • d • e 

Home: Aussie Stadium, Sydney, New South Wales

Coach: England Terry Butcher | Captain: Australia Mark Rudan

Seasons: 2005-06 | 2006-07
  New Zealand Knights  v • d • e 

Home: North Harbour Stadium, Auckland, New Zealand

Coach: Barry Simmonds (interum) | Captain: England Darren Bazeley

Seasons: 2005-06 | 2006-07
  Newcastle Jets  v • d • e 

Home: EnergyAustralia Stadium, Newcastle, New South Wales

Coach: Australia Gary van Egmond | Captain: Australia Paul Okon

Seasons: 2005-06 | 2006-07
  Melbourne Victory  v • d • e 

Home: Olympic Park Stadium, Melbourne, Victoria and Telstra Dome, Melbourne, Victoria

Coach: Scotland Ernie Merrick | Captain: Australia Kevin Muscat

Seasons: 2005-06 | 2006-07
  Perth Glory  v • d • e 

Home: Members Equity Stadium, Perth, Western Australia

Coach: England Ron Smith | Captain: Australia Jamie Harnwell

Seasons: 2005-06 | 2006-07
  Queensland Roar  v • d • e 

Home: Suncorp Stadium, Brisbane, Queensland

Coach: Australia Frank Farina  Captain: Australia Chad Gibson

Seasons: 2005-06 | 2006-07

Cheers, Daniel.Bryant [ T · C ] 05:52, 30 October 2006 (UTC)

they're all right... which one did you guess? – AlbinoMonkey (Talk) 10:58, 31 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Userbox

I quickly did up a userbox for this project, at User:Blackmissionary/FSIA. If people like it, someone more knowledgable can clean it up a little and add a category or whatever. Or If someone can make a better one, that'd be good too. Blackmissionary 23:10, 31 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Season article naming

I've been meaning to suggest that the season articles be renamed to take the capital "S" out of season. I just hadn't got round to it because it wasn't that urgent :P Now that I've actually got around to it, are there any other changes to the naming format that people want to suggest? -- Chuq 05:45, 7 November 2006 (UTC)

I agree. Move and leave redir, then fix all the templates. Daniel.Bryant [ T · C ] 21:11, 7 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Anon user changing details

Does anyone know if this changes by User:155.143.126.14 are legit or not? Is there a good, updated external source we can check them against?-- Chuq 05:41, 8 November 2006 (UTC)

I don't know but people who are deleting the height and years technical stuff ( m and –), (Socceroo and User:155.143.126.14) off player templates are really annoying me. According to http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Template_talk:Infobox_Football_biography there still needed Boltonfan22 09:33, 8 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Adelaide United infobox question

In pages such as John Kosmina and Richie Alagich the NSL and A League spent years spent at Adelaide United are separated, and i was wondering if this was part of a style guide, or just a someone's personal whim? I can't see why personally, seeing as it's the same team. Any objections if i fix these up? Blackmissionary 08:23, 9 November 2006 (UTC)

They are the same club. Merge, I reckon. Daniel.Bryant [ T · C ] 08:32, 9 November 2006 (UTC)

Although they are technically two distinct organisations the public perception is that they are the same club...--Hack 08:46, 9 November 2006 (UTC)

How are they different organisations? Is this the Matt Carroll-esque 'every team is 2 years old' theory, or something else? Blackmissionary 08:51, 9 November 2006 (UTC)

My understanding is that the first organisation was wound up after the end of the NSL and the second was started at the time of their bidding for a place in the A-League. I will look into the details...--Hack 02:19, 10 November 2006 (UTC)

Fair enough, i won't alter the relevant sections until further info comes up, however my preference is to treat them as the same club. Blackmissionary 03:30, 10 November 2006 (UTC)

I'd personally prefer that for the purposes of player details that they were counted as the same club. An example would be Perth Glory who for business purposes are a different organisation to that which existed under the NSL. But for all intents and purposes it is the same football team. Similarly in an English context when Millwall (or any number of other clubs) became a PLC it did not mean the history of the club stopped...--Hack 07:34, 10 November 2006 (UTC)

Agreed. Although slightly different, it'd be like considering two organisations "different" because they were bought out by someone else. Daniel.Bryant [ T · C ] 08:05, 10 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Queensland Roar / Queensland Lions

Given all of this, are Queensland Roar and Brisbane Lions/Hollandia the same club?--Hack 01:42, 13 November 2006 (UTC)

Do Queensland Roar/Lions still operate senior teams in the Brisbane state leagues? If not, then i would consider them the same club, but if there can be found some evidence that it is a complete break from the previous incarnation(s), then we should follow that stance. Blackmissionary 02:04, 13 November 2006 (UTC)

Qld Lions don't have a team in the senior comp any more. They still operate as a licenced club (ie gaming and entertainment) under that name, as well as a number of junior and women's teams. The Roar operate as Queensland Roar FC, but with essentially the same board composition... --Hack 02:28, 13 November 2006 (UTC)

And they wear the Dutch orange and Bleiberg was coach at Lions as well. I lean heavily to continuity on this one, unless someone calls up the Roar office and asks a few board members and finds out otherwise lol. It all sounds a bit like the way South Melbourne FC is a subsidiary of sorts of the South Melbourne Hellas Soccer Club, but still considered the same club, which is perhaps an indication of how we should treat the continuity issue. Blackmissionary 04:40, 13 November 2006 (UTC)

So the history of Hollandia/Lions would be put into the Roar article?--Hack 04:43, 13 November 2006 (UTC)

I would vote yes. Based as i said, on no senior men's team competing in the Brisbane leagues after the Roar's entry into the A League, similar financial backer in the Queensland Lions club, similar personnel at coaching, and perhaps at board level, and usage of Dutch orange when the obvious choice was for at least some maroon, using 'Roar' as a nickname, links from the qldlions site to Queensland Roar site. But let's see what some other people think as well. Blackmissionary 05:03, 13 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Adelaide Sharks

This page currently redirects to the Adelaide 36ers page. There was an AFD where the consensus was that it links to the 36ers. Is there something we can do as the Adelaide Sharks as an NSL team are far more notable than a potential name for a basketball team. --Hack 03:11, 10 November 2006 (UTC)

I've deleted the redirect - replacing bodgy redirects with more notable articles really isn't much of an issue. Feel free to write a proper article. Rebecca 03:35, 10 November 2006 (UTC)
I'm doing the article now. It'll be a basic thing at first, just for a presence at least, and to add relevant redirects. Blackmissionary 03:40, 10 November 2006 (UTC)
Article is at West Adelaide Soccer Club. Redirects from West Adelaide Hellas, Adelaide Sharks and West Adelaide SC are online, (thanks to Hack for the last one, even though it was created as an ultra stub) and hopefully i can get round to cleaning it up a little in the not too distant future. Blackmissionary 04:27, 10 November 2006 (UTC)
I am trying to find out if there is some sort of link between the Sharks and Adelaide Olympic. Also the Olympic website suggests they were formed 2000 but wikipedia says 1978. A touch confusing.--Hack 06:21, 10 November 2006 (UTC)
Hmmm, it appears from this Ozfootball page that they were founded in 1978 (and other articles have them playing in the SA leagues in the 1990's at least from a quick glance), so i would say from the info at hand, and from some anecdotal evidence, that ex-West Adelaide fans, following the demise of their club, jumped on the Olympic bandwagon, and there or may not have been a formal merger. We'll have to keep looking for a little while longer for the answer. Blackmissionary 06:33, 10 November 2006 (UTC)

From this link "West Adelaide went into liquidation and are gone, but their juniors merged with Olympians in the local league and are now called Adelaide Olympic. They have been successful being promoted to the premier league after 1 season (going unbeaten), and just recently lost in the premier league grand final in extra time." Hopefully that clears it up a little. Blackmissionary 06:45, 10 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Central Coast Mariners FC...

...is the current football (soccer) collab. of the week. Daniel.Bryant [ T · C ] 05:43, 13 November 2006 (UTC)

Fantastic - I think we should use this opportunity to get it 100% and then use its format as a basis for the other A-League teams. -- Chuq 11:54, 13 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] More templates

Have a look at Football (soccer) in Victoria, you will see I have created another template for Victoria at {{AUS fb state Vic}} This includes links to FFV, VPL (& teams) and VSLD1 (& teams). Note it doesn't include Melbourne Victory as (AFAIK) MV doesn't come under FFV at all. If people like it I can do similar things for other states. -- Chuq 11:54, 13 November 2006 (UTC)

  • Looks great, We can also add these to the governing body pages which have the old template on them.Boltonfan22 06:11, 14 November 2006 (UTC)
  • Yeah, like them, especially the way in the Vic one where the leagues and teams are all there in one place. Blackmissionary 06:14, 14 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] National Soccer League history section rewrite

I've done a substantial rewrite of the NSL article's history section. All interested parties are invited to make commments, suggestions etc. on that article's talk page, cheers Blackmissionary 00:37, 15 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] 2006 FIFA World Cup controversies

Given the Socceroos' large part in this article (v Japan; v Croatia; v Italy all mentioned), I feel that it call fall under this Wikiproject's scope. Thoughts? Daniel.Bryant [ T · C ] 05:34, 16 November 2006 (UTC)

Addendum: v Brazil also has a section. Daniel.Bryant [ T · C ] 05:38, 16 November 2006 (UTC)
agreed, definetily part this project's scope. Blackmissionary 06:07, 16 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Blue and white brigade

Are supporters groups worthy of an article in their own right? It seems that most football 'ultra' groups do not have their own page. This page is up for deletion so I was wondering what others thought about it... Hack 06:20, 16 November 2006 (UTC)

Nope. Merge them into the #Supporters section of the team's article, and redirect. Similar thing happened with the Marinators and the CCMFC article. Daniel.Bryant [ T · C ] 06:32, 16 November 2006 (UTC)
Seconded Blackmissionary 08:41, 16 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Footballer nationalities

Can someone run thru and check the contribs from this IP (Special:Contributions/144.132.5.112) - as I noted on User talk:144.132.5.112, nationalities aren't determined from where a player was born. I've reverted the change of Wayne O'Sullivan (an Irish international) to being a Cypriot, and I'd like someone to run thru and check the others - the edits from the 15th and 17th of this month specifically. Cheers, Daniel.Bryant [ T · C ] 11:06, 17 November 2006 (UTC)

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