Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Eastern Orthodoxy

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This is the talk page for discussing improvements to the Wikipedia:WikiProject Eastern Orthodoxy Wikipedia page.
WikiProject Eastern Orthodoxy This article is part of WikiProject Eastern Orthodoxy, an attempt to organize information in articles related to the Eastern Orthodox Church. If you would like to participate, you can edit the article attached to this page, or visit the project page, where you can join the project and/or contribute to the discussion.

You may also want to look at the current collaboration of the month or the project's notice board.

 WikiProject Eastern Orthodoxy

Contents

[edit] Collaboration of the Month

A number of other WikiProjects have the feature of having a collaboration of the month, essentially a call to enlist many editors to work on improving an article together for a month, drawing attention to that article. (See, for instance, the Wikipedia:WikiProject Anglicanism/COTM.) Let's begin a process of nomination and voting to begin our own COTM for August at this subpage. —Preost talk contribs 16:22, 22 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Ratings

What we definetely need to do is to go around and rate all of the articles in their style and appearance. Have a look at the Trains wikiproject which I am part of and consider application of the similar templates they devised. --Kuban Cossack 17:07, 25 July 2006 (UTC)

This seems like a fine idea. I suppose it would be incorporated into Template:Orthodoxyproject. How are the ratings usually determined? —Preost talk contribs 01:41, 26 July 2006 (UTC)
Its actually remarkably straightforward -> Wikipedia:WikiProject Trains/Assessment. I would never think that it be too difficult to distinguish a stub from an FA.--Kuban Cossack 09:29, 26 July 2006 (UTC)
WikiProject Catholicism seems to have a similar, but less complicated system of ratings. I'm not sure that I'm up to the coding, though this could very well be useful. What do you think? —Preost talk contribs 17:23, 28 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] template

I made this. I think its about ready to go live, but if anyone wants to edit it or make comments, feel free. All we need to do next is move the code from the subpage to the main template space, and move the inclusion tag on each individual article to the top of the page.--Andrew c 15:52, 26 July 2006 (UTC)

Maybe we can add a photocollage of some of the more famous churches. Say one from Greece, one from Georgia, one from Middle East, one from Russia and one from Balkan area... or something like that.? --Kuban Cossack 15:55, 26 July 2006 (UTC)
Browse through Category:Religion navigational boxes to get some ideas of the format generally used across wikipedia for these sort of boxes. I think one image is the norm. That said, if you'd rather have an image of a eastern Church, instead of a Byzantine depiction of Jesus, go right ahead and change the image, or suggest a few and perhaps we could vote? There are at least 5 images of buldings in the Eastern Orthodox Church article.--Andrew c 16:19, 26 July 2006 (UTC)


Well we do not need an image gallery, only the most famous and significant should be present. IMO Athos in Greece, Basil in Moscow, Svetitskhoveli in Georgia, Nevsky in Sofia or maybe Nativity in Jerusalem or Savva in Belgrade... Really it has to offer a welcome hand to a reader who has no idea on Orthodoxy, so I suggest if we use famous buildings that are seen already in many western publcations on Orthodoxy then there can be familiar appeal to readers. Hey Taj-Mahal is what draws people to India after all. --Kuban Cossack 22:29, 29 July 2006 (UTC)
I'm just trying to figure out what exactly it is y'all are talking about. What are you talking about using these images for? —Preost talk contribs 23:44, 31 July 2006 (UTC)



Ah, okay. I think the image on the Eastern Christianity template should remain as it is, because Eastern Christianity comprises so much more than one church. Of course, I'm of the opinion that the template should be moved back to being a link to the Eastern Christianity Portal. There's just too much variation in Eastern Christianity to make a "series" template that can really do it justice. Perhaps one for just the Eastern Orthodox Church might be better. —Preost talk contribs 14:56, 1 August 2006 (UTC)
In any event, I think perhaps this discussion would be best moved elsewhere, as it's not directly related to coordination work for the WikiProject. —Preost talk contribs 18:35, 1 August 2006 (UTC)


Ok I need help. I have moved the new template to the main article space. What needs to be done is someone needs to go into every article that includes the template and move it to the top. However, if there is already a template or image at the top, then a table needs to be used in order to avoid bad code that results from stacking multiple floated items. So this is what you do. Go here. Pick any page. Go and edit the code. Move the {{Eastern Christianity}} from the bottom to the top. If there is an image or template already at the top, please insert the following code:

{|style="float: right;"   
|-       
|(A)
|- 
|{{Eastern Christianity}}
|}

Where (A) is equal to the template or image already included at the top of the article. If you need an example, look at the code of Monophysitism or Coptic Christianity. So any editor that has any spare time to move this code would be greatly appreciated. Thanks for your time and consideration!--Andrew c 18:06, 27 July 2006 (UTC)

I commented on the template's talk page. I'm concerned that this template's choices in links are really imbalanced. At this point, it mainly seems to be a link to a few overview articles in the midst of what seems almost like a random list of other things (e.g., one Ecumenical Patriarch, one Coptic Pope, one Syriac Patriarch of Antioch, and one sainted Serbian king?). I think it could use some significant trimming and focusing. —Preost talk contribs 23:56, 27 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Archbishops of Crete

Although I won't be joining this project, I couldn't help noticing that at recent deaths, the report of the death of the Archbishop of Crete has been noted as unreferenced, and the list of Archbishops of Crete is in rather bad condition. Michael Hardy 14:46, 27 July 2006 (UTC)



[edit] Articles on churches

  • General comment: I ported over the article on the Estonian Orthodox Church a few months back from OrthodoxWiki, and I was surprised to see that not all churches in the Eastern tradition had pages yet. It would seem to me like it is a priority to create articles on these autonomous churches. For that matter, some of the autocephalous churches are a little disappointing, too (i.e. Albania.) I don't exactly have a nomination from all this, but it's something to bear in mind. -Justin (koavf), talk, mail 21:37, 24 July 2006 (UTC)

The previous comment was moved from Wikipedia:WikiProject Eastern Orthodoxy/COTM by Preost. 02:15, 28 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Categories

I've been jumping around editing all sorts of pages, and looking for links to pages I've been editing, and things they can link to.

It struck me that one thing that makes such things easier is the categories we use, and I think we could profitably discuss this. I've started a couple of new categories, to which I've linked some of the Orthodox articles I've been editing. One of them is "Christianity in Africa". I invite you to look at it, and see if there are any other Orthodox articles that need to be added to this category.

I see there is a category "Christian theology", and I would like to suggest a sub-category of that, "Eastern Orthodox theology". While it might be useful to have an article on Eastern Orthodox theology generally, it might be even more important to provide something to link smaller articles that might get written on aspects of Orthodox theology.

I would welcome thoughts on this -- most of our categories so far seem to relate to churches, and not theology. SteveH 10:37, 5 August 2006 (UTC)

Another comment: is there a category for Orthodox saints, where we can see Seraphim of Sarov and Moses the Black in the same list? SteveH 14:46, 6 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] DYKs

We need a subsection on that, there is so many unique fact on so many Othodox churches, that they need to be enlightened to the public. For instance here is a new one St. Michael's Golden-Domed Monastery. Quite an interesting one IMO. --Kuban Cossack 17:46, 6 August 2006 (UTC)

I agree. The Eastern Christianity Portal is in need of a DYK subsection. —dima /sb.tk/ 18:44, 7 August 2006 (UTC)
It's a related project and could certainly use such a section. Perhaps someone may wish to suggest it over at Portal talk:Eastern Christianity? —Preost talk contribs 03:19, 8 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Identification needed

Hi folks. I need your help to identify four saints depicted on the Harbaville Triptych, a famous Byzantine ivory triptych representing a deisis. I can work out the letters but it doesn't seem to help… You can find the pictures on Commons :

Thanks in advance for your help. Jastrow 19:10, 8 August 2006 (UTC)

First image, left to right: Theodore the Recruit/Soldier/Tyro; Theodore the General/Stratelates.
Second image, top row, left to right: Can't make it out, but it looks like it begins "Nerkou..."; Thomas (not sure which one). Bottom row, left to right: Evstratios; Areth[as].
Iconography often uses abbreviations, so it can be difficult to figure out if one doesn't know all of them. These are my best guesses, though. —Preost talk contribs 19:59, 8 August 2006 (UTC)
Thanks a lot! Jastrow 06:41, 9 August 2006 (UTC)
Second image, top left is Mercurius, one of the soldier saints. I've been needlessly nosey and gone and identified the saints in the roundels too. InfernoXV 14:50, 21 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Apportioning Eastern Orthodox Church

After proposing the idea on Talk:Eastern Orthodox Church a few days ago and getting no objections (or any other comments, for that matter), I've started apportioning off sections of the main article into sub-articles, replacing the section in the main article with a summary. So far, I've done Eastern Orthodox theology. Please feel free to join in, addressing specifics on Talk:Eastern Orthodox Church. —Preost talk contribs 14:11, 10 August 2006 (UTC)

Greetings my friend! Do we presently have an article devoted solely to the church after the fall of Constandinople to Mehmet the Conquerer, and the immediate period thereafter, i. e. the death of the Patriarch in the Battle, the appointing of a new one afterwards, and all those events? I have not found one, (other than those topics being dealt with as part and parcel of the fall of the city and end of the Bzyantine Empire, etc. I wanted to first check and see if there was such an article, and then, if there was not, see if you thought such an article would be beneficial. I obviously think it would be! I would offer the thought that a detailed article on the Church through the Ottoman Centuries, separate and alone from existing articles, just as the article on the rebuilding of the Church in the chaotic aftermath of the fall of the city, would be beneficial. Your input is humbly sought, first to let me know whether I have missed an article on these precise subjects, and secondly, if I have not, and none exists, whether writing them would be a positive addition to the project. Thanks! old windy bear 16:30, 12 August 2006 (UTC)

If one exists, I haven't seen it. That sounds like an excellent idea. —Preost talk contribs 16:40, 12 August 2006 (UTC)
Excellent! I will do two separate articles, the first being what occurred to the church after the fall of Constandinople to Mehmet the Conquerer, and the immediate period thereafter, i. e. the death of the Patriarch in the Battle, the appointing of a new one afterwards, and all the events that occurred in the following decades, as the Church adapted to life under the Sultan. I will work on that one first. Then, after you have approved that one, I would start on a general article on the history of the Church in the Ottoman Empire. Thanks for the prompt response, and I would like you to review the draft on the first article when it is completed, prior to my posting it, so that I can get input on it and correct any obvious deficiencies prior to posting. I will go to work on the first article today.old windy bear 17:36, 12 August 2006 (UTC)
It would probably also be good to make a separate History of the Eastern Orthodox Church article, turning the relevant section the main Eastern Orthodox Church into a summary. —Preost talk contribs 17:42, 12 August 2006 (UTC)
Done! I will format it that way, and if you don't mind, will email you the draft, so you can edit and review it, prior to posting a new article. It should take me about 2-3 weeks to get the first History of the Eastern Orthodox Church article draft done, (with citing and appropriate linking and sourcing), and ready for your review, with the relevant section of the main Eastern Orthodox Church as a summary. Thanks for the guidance! old windy bear 17:51, 12 August 2006 (UTC)
No need to send it to me only. Perhaps you can create it as a subpage to your userpage, e.g., User:Oldwindybear/History of the Eastern Orthodox Church. That way, everyone can see it and comment. Once done, you can cut and paste it to the new article. —Preost talk contribs 00:03, 13 August 2006 (UTC)
Will do, and I will post here when it is up and ready for examination by everyone. I believe more pre-posting editing would lead to less arguments later. old windy bear 12:44, 13 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] RCC vs. CC

  • Talk:Roman Catholic Church - should the article's name be changed to simply "Catholic Church". This debate has been going on for months now, and a vote/comment is underway. There are policy/guideline issues, and disambiguity and POV issues on both sides. Please, if you have the time, take a few minutes to review the past discussions and weigh in. Thanks for your consideration.--Andrew c 16:18, 4 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Conversion of Project Page to standard box layout

I have converted the main Project page to the standard box layout that is also being used for the Portal. —Antonios Aigyptostalk 19:52, 6 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Cleaner display of participants

Following other Project pages, the listing of participants on the Project page looks much nicer if it's kept brief: just names linked to User pages. I'm re-formatting our participant listing accordingly - the long jurisdiction/etc. descriptions really clutter up the page (and aren't necessary, since participants can indicate this information on their user pages). For those who like to see records, here's the participants listing as it was just before the conversion. —Antonios Aigyptostalk 19:55, 6 September 2006 (UTC)

  1. Alexander Radev, Bulgarian Orthodox Church, practising, Joined July 16, 2006. (Project Founder)
  2. User:Maxim662, United Kingdom, Ecumenical Patriarchate: Agreed. 22nd July, 2006.
  3. Todor Bozhinov, Bulgaria, Bulgarian Orthodox Church. Joined 24 July 2006.
  4. -Justin (koavf), talk, mail 20:38, 24 July 2006 (UTC). As a Westerner, I'm not sure how much expertise I have in Orthodox history or faith, but I'd be happy to help.
  5. oldwindybear, I am a Catholic, and love the Orthodox Church as our Brothers and Sisters, believe we are all one faith, (but aware of the theological issues!), and will help in any way I can. This is an excellent organizational project for the entire field.
  6. Joseph from Georgia, member of the Georgian Orthodox and Apostolic Church, student in Virginia, is proud to be a member of this project. Joined July 25, 2006.Sosomk 13:15, 25 July 2006 (UTC)
  7. Kober from Georgia, Georgian Orthodox Church.
  8. Kuban Cossack. Kuban Cossack from Russia, Russian Orthodox Church. Particular interest falls into the Orthodox schisms and Catholic/Uniate aggression towards our brethen in Ukraine and Belarus.
  9. carl.bunderson, United States, Catholic catechumen. I'm not sure how much I'll be able to help, but I'll contribute all I can. Joined 25 July 2006.
  10. adriatikus, Romania, Romanian Orthodox Church, July 26th, 2006.
  11. Wesley, United States, Orthodox Church in America, July 26, 2006. I'll do what I can as I'm able.
  12. Csernica, United States, Orthodox Church in America.
  13. Pistevo, member at 28 July 2006; Australia, Greek Orthodox Archdiocese of Australia; sysop of OrthodoxWiki.
  14. --Leonardo Alves 17:07, 28 July 2006 (UTC) United States, Italian Protestant. Focus on Latin Orthodoxy and Western Orthodoxy. Also interests in Eastern Heterodoxies.
  15. --fathermaximos 18:31, 28 July 2006 (UTC) United States Greek Orthodox Patriarchate of Jerusalem ( in America ). I am the secretary to the Epitropos of the Holy Sepulcher in America
  16. abakharev, Russian Orthodox Church Outside Russia, Victoria (Australia)
  17. IvanP/(болтай), currently Antiochian Orthodox Archdiocese of North America though several other jurisdictions in the past; Harford County, Maryland; 00:44, 31 July 2006 (UTC)
  18. LoveMonkey You'll never get it outta me copper, but I am Russian Orthodox :)
  19. Steve Hayes, Tshwane, Archdiocese of Johannesburg and Pretoria, Orthodox Church of Alexandria
  20. dima, Chicagoland area
  21. Ktsquare
  22. Calak, Ukrainian Orthodox Church of Canada, Calgary, Alberta, Canada
  23. Dorotheus, Greek Orthodox by birth, OCA in the States, Antioch and EP in the UK. Joined 08:46, 21 August 2006 (UTC).
  24. Akarige, Brittany
  25. Antonios Aigyptos
  26. buddhagazelle, Greek Orthodox Archdiocese of America, Gainesville, Florida. Joined September 6 2006.

[edit] Adding Project sections to your watchlist

To other Project members: since the new Project layout is a portal-style box format, each of the boxes is actually it's own page (you can see the page outside its box by clicking the 'Edit' link on any box, which takes you to the Edit page for its contents). Because of this, I'm not sure if updates to individual box page contents will show up on editors' Watchlists, if you've only got the main Project page watched.

In order to keep up to date with all updates to the Project pages, I'd recommend adding each subpage to your Watchlists. These are:

If you add all of the above pages to your Watchlist, you should be informed whenever any part of the WikiProject Eastern Christianity is edited/updated. —Antonios Aigyptostalk 08:38, 7 September 2006 (UTC)


[edit] Proposal to resolve the Catholic/Roman Catholic debate

So far as I can determine, there are at least six archived pages of talk relating to the proper name of the page for the Catholic Church headed by the Pope. It is hard to imagine that this so-far endless discussion has not resulted in bad feelings on all sides. Regretably, no final resolution seems to be likely anytime soon if the same tactics are taken.

I would like to make a proposal which I believe might finally solve the core dispute which has led to this argument. I also note that I myself am in no way qualified to seek to "impose" this possibility on anyone, and am thus requesting that the majority of the rest of you involved in this discussion at least consider lending your support to this way of very likely resolving the current discussion.

As most of you will know, there is currently an election to the Wikimedia Foundation Board of Trustees ongoing. My proposal is that, come the end of this election, a special referendum regarding the name debate be held. Any and all editors who have taken part in the election, but only those individuals, would be eligible to vote to determine how this matter would be decided, including all those who claim no allegiance to any of the opposing sides. The decision reached would not be "final" in any real sense, but would resolve the question which has led to the current debate until some development which alters the current status quo takes place. Exactly how to determine what such developments would qualify could also be one of the issues involved in the vote.

I ask each of you to thoughtfully and, according to your own inclinations, prayerfully consider this proposal, and, if it is one agreeable to you, to help me in finding out exactly how to go about making this happen. (Hey, I'm kinda new here, OK?) Thank you for your attention. Badbilltucker 21:33, 11 September 2006 (UTC)

I doubt this would resolve anything. That article has already gone through the normal consensus-determining process several times and has emerged with its current title each time. The problem is that there are those who don't like it and so periodically agitate for it to be changed. (Not that it's necessarily the same people each time.) After a voluminous argument and an enormous waste of time, the status quo remains intact. Even the process you suggest (were it even possible to get it adopted, which would itself occasion significant debate) wouldn't change that.
But if you want to give it a try, WP:VPR is probably the place to begin. TCC (talk) (contribs) 03:13, 12 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] "Orthodoxy" alone is ambiguous

Hello: This message deals with a number of issues stemming from the unclear use of the word "Orthodox" and "Orthodoxy." In the past Wikipedia has tried to avoid confusion between the names of Orthodox Judaism and Eastern Orthodox Christianity by not using the word "Orthodox" or "Orthodoxy" alone in titles when other qualifying words, such as "Church" or "Christian" (in the case of Eastern Christian Orthodoxy) or words such as "Synagogue" or "Jewish" (in the case of Orthodox Judaism, would help to qualify the usage of the name "Orthodox" or "Orthodoxy" so that any reader or editor on Wikipedia should not be confused by a title and should know from an article's or category's name whether that subject deals with either Orthodox Judaism or Eastern Orthodox Christianity (also called Orthodox Christianity). In the past there has been no objection to inserting either "church" or "Christian/ity" where the Eastern Orthodox Church articles or categories are concerned and I have tried to move in this direction. It is for this reason that I have made the nominations to rename the ambiguous categories at Wikipedia:Categories for deletion/Log/2006 September 14#Orthodox Christian categories. Yet it seems that some editors are not aware of this and I am bringing this to your attention. I will cross-post this message to Wikipedia:WikiProject Orthodox Judaism and to Wikipedia:WikiProject Judaism for further discussion. The implications for Wikipedia:WikiProject Eastern Orthodoxy is that it too should be renamed to Wikipedia:WikiProject Eastern Orthodox Church or Wikipedia:WikiProject Eastern Orthodox Christianity to avoid any confusion with Wikipedia:WikiProject Orthodox Judaism. Sincerely, IZAK 02:58, 19 September 2006 (UTC)

I take the points here on board, but it does seem like this is taking a wish for systematic clarity too far. In common and academic parlance, "Eastern Orthodoxy" doesn't refer to Judaism, nor would most (if any) Orthodox Jews describe themselves this way in English (though there is one group that does in Hebrew; but when it's translated into English, it's not called "Eastern Orthodox"). This is a title that is essentially universally recognized as meaning the Eastern Orthodox Christian Church, and it doesn't seem to me that it is Wikipedia's place to try to re-clarify something that for many, many decades has been quite clear, standard and accepted in the worldwide and academic communities. —Antonios Aigyptostalk 10:14, 19 September 2006 (UTC)
Hi Antonios: Thank you for your feedback. In answer to what you say: Yet, why is it that the WikiPortal for this subject can quite happily, and correctly in my view, call itself Portal:Eastern Christianity on this same subject? If it is possible, and correct, as well as honorable to have the words "Church" or "Christianity" in a title then why not? I think it detracts from the honor of your Church and your religion that the words "Church" and "Christianity" are dropped from it. I hope it does not indicate a drop in your level of faith or pride in your religion? You know, there is a Jewish group that calls itself Humanistic Judaism that does not even believe in God, they want to have it "both ways" - be human and cling to a "Judaism" that does not mention God. In my view this is not a path to follow, but to each his own. At any rate, relating to the discussion at hand, you make good points from the point of view of common English, but what we need to strive for is clarity in the headings of articles and categories, so that not all "Orthodoxies" could and would get confused with each other, a problem which we should try to avoid. IZAK 06:02, 20 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Theologoumena?

I thought about writing an article explaining theologoumena, but I simply cannot figure out where to start. Those not familiar with the Orthodox tradition of belief very often stumble when they presume that Orthodox Christianity treats all doctrines with the extremist and narrow methods more common in Western forms of Christianity. That is, the presumption is that everything is either dogmatic or not a belief at all. Anyone want to take a try at an article for theologoumena? Dogface 15:43, 20 October 2006 (UTC)

That's a hard one. There are furthermore beliefs that are neither dogma nor theologoumena but are held to be true anyway, such as the events surrounding the Dormition of the Theotokos. As I see it, the big stumbling block is the question, "What is it necessary to believe for salvation?" It's hard work to explain that this question is almost meaningless in Orthodoxy. TCC (talk) (contribs) 20:29, 20 October 2006 (UTC)
FWIW, Bishop BASIL (Essey) was talking on preoccupation with conditions for salvation just today. 1) If you are just trying to avoid hell, you are nothing more than a slave avoiding the punishment of his master. 2) If you are preoccupied with how to get to heaven, with conditions of salvation, you are nothing more than a hired hand looking to receive his wage. 3) Our preoccupation is to be loving God, all else flowing from that, being sons of God. Salvation is a gift of God we cannot control. Obedience to God (and fulfilling the conditions of salvation) is a natural byproduct of loving God. Epte 22:34, 22 October 2006 (UTC)
That would be great to incorporate somewhere. Might it be written/published anywhere at the moment?Dogface 16:09, 24 October 2006 (UTC)
This particular homily is not published, AFAIK. He doesn't homilize from notes. He was here for our patronal feast day (St. James) and that's what he talked about. There's probably some similar thing published elsewhere. Do you think it's worth emailing him for references, or perhaps a quote? Epte 23:02, 24 October 2006 (UTC)
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