Talk:Duff Cooper

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[edit] Requested move

Duff Cooper, 1st Viscount Norwich → Duff Cooper – most commonly used name -- Deb 20:50, 20 August 2005 (UTC)

Add *Support or *Oppose followed by an optional one sentence explanation, then sign your vote with ~~~~

• Support. I see no problem with moving the current article to Duff Cooper (which is where anyone, I think, would expect to find it). Not sure about his son yet. Mackensen (talk) 00:53, 21 August 2005 (UTC)
• Oppose. Against wikipedia policy: Wikipedia:Naming conventions (names and titles)#Other non-royal names. Redirects take care of usage in these cases Philip Baird Shearer 14:27, 21 August 2005 (UTC)
• Support - with Mackensen - this falls clearly under the exception to the peerage title naming rule. john k 15:58, 21 August 2005 (UTC)
• Support: use common name. Jonathunder 18:47, 2005 August 21 (UTC)
• Support; per Mackensen. Septentrionalis 19:09, 23 August 2005 (UTC)
• Oppose. Against wikipedia policy of naming conventions. – AxSkov (☏) 08:39, 24 August 2005 (UTC)
• Support, yes, the policy when we wrote it originally allows (nay, demands) for this. James F. (talk) 20:12, 24 August 2005 (UTC)
• Oppose against wikipedia policy on naming nobles. Gryffindor 14:58, August 26, 2005 (UTC)
• Support --Francis Schonken 21:42, 30 August 2005 (UTC)

This article has been renamed after the result of a move request. Dragons flight 04:28, August 31, 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Discussion

Add any additional comments

I think it is a bit silly to include the whole of Duff Cooper's title in the title of this article. As the article correctly states, he is universally known as Duff Cooper. Even sillier, however, is having his son listed as John Julius Cooper, 2nd Viscount Norwich, when he is even more universally known as John Julius Norwich. I'm therefore requesting a move for both articles. Deb 20:48, 20 August 2005 (UTC)

• I don't think this will succeed. When I first stumbled across the Wikipedia conventions for peerage titles, I thought it was silly to have pages called Horatio Nelson, 1st Lord Nelson and Alfred Tennyson, 1st Baron Tennyson, too. But the consensus is definitely that that's Wikipedia style. Don't fight it. :) (See Wikipedia:Naming conventions (names and titles)#Other non-royal names.) --Quuxplusone 01:54, 21 August 2005 (UTC)

Yes, but Deb and I are the sorts who pushed through those rules in the first place ;). There's an exception for most common name. Duff Cooper is never known as Lord Norwich, whereas Tennyson is often known by his title (ditto Nelson). The issue with Tennyson and Nelson was the correct and unambiguous rendering of their title. In this situation, the issue is whether to note it in the article title at all. Mackensen (talk) 12:52, 21 August 2005 (UTC)

In my copy of wikipedia, Nelson is under Horatio Nelson, 1st Viscount Nelson in any case! Deb 15:55, 21 August 2005 (UTC)

Good catch. But then I don't understand your reasoning, since clearly (to me, at least :) nobody knows Lord Nelson as "Viscount Nelson"! What's the point of allowing this single exemption from the general rule? (Well, two exemptions.) --Quuxplusone 00:45, 22 August 2005 (UTC)

Well, the matter is somewhat complicated, but I'll put it as simply as I can. Lord so-and-so is accepted shorthand for all British peers below the rank of duke (baron, viscount, earl, and marquess). While Nelson was properly titled Viscount Nelson, he could be referred to as Lord Nelson. However, that was not his actual title. The only peers who are titled thusly are lords of parliament, and there aren't many of those about. Of course, further confusing matters, many barons are often simply called lords, because barons aren't a big deal. However, the proper title is still baron, not lord. Now, moving on towards your main point, Duff Cooper was made a peer late in his life, becoming Viscount Norwich. That's his proper title. He could also be called "Lord Norwich," as I did above. However, he was rarely known as such, especially as the "important" part of his life occurred when he was still a commoner. The naming guidelines recognize that there are situations when someone is best known by a name other than their final/eventual legal one (see also Robert Stewart, Viscount Castlereagh). Duff Cooper represents one of these exceptions. Mackensen (talk) 01:06, 22 August 2005 (UTC)

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Against wikipedia policy: Wikipedia:Naming conventions (names and titles)#Other non-royal names. Redirects take care of usage in these cases Philip Baird Shearer 14:27, 21 August 2005 (UTC)

• • Actually, Duff Cooper falls under the exception (" or for any other reason are known exclusively by their personal names, do not include the peerage dignity.") No one calls him Lord Norwich; I imagine many don't even realize he was made a peer. Mackensen (talk) 15:16, 21 August 2005 (UTC)

In other words, if a title is used at all, use the formal and correct one, with numeral; but if the title is not used (as with Bertrand Russell), follow usage. Sounds good to me. Septentrionalis 19:09, 23 August 2005 (UTC)

I suppose Frederick Leighton is called Lord Leighton, retrospectively. Septentrionalis 19:09, 23 August 2005 (UTC)