Talk:Drifting (motorsport)

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Contents 1 Coverage 2 Coverage, again... 3 orginal statement 4 ah.. 5 Japanese names 6 Merging with new contents 7 Gotcha 8 KAZAAAAAAMAAA!!!! 9 Engine overheating 10 Separate enties for D1GP and FD 11 American stock-car roots? 12 Little changes 13 Jumps? 14 Sources 15 Plagiarism 16 Rear-Engine 17 FWD Drift 18 opposite lock at start 19 Addition of vehicles with reference to ireland and uk. 20 dirt drop 21 junk 22 Drifting Rules 23 Drawbacks? 24 Cars 25 External Links (again) 26 Drift411 27 Who keeps adding in "taking in"?

[edit] Coverage

Under coverage, Drift & RWD Sport Magazine seems to have been deleted before, even though it is the only print and digital magazine listed (all the others are web sites and/or galleries). I've added it again just because I think it's representative of the original entry.

[edit] Coverage, again...

What happend to Driftlive.com? It's seems to be the only site with consistant up-to-date coverage? Yet again EverythingDrift.com seems to be coming back in full swing!!

[edit] orginal statement

I see nothing wrong with the definition; it thoroughly explains the "sport" of drift racing and its possible implications on society.

Please read NPOV. --fvw* 20:00, 2005 Jan 12 (UTC)

[edit] ah..

I think this page needs to be edited by someone more knowledgeable... I added a few things but they're not enough.

[edit] Japanese names

What's the Wikipedia standard for Japanese personal names? Surname first or last? I couldn't find a definitive answer. This article has a random mixture of both; if someone can point me towards a definitive statement, I'll make this article consistent. Pbattley 23:45, 24 August 2005 (UTC)

Surnames are always first Willirennen 14:38 21 November 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Merging with new contents

This was in the drift article, and have a merge tag suggesting that should be merged with this page. Now drift is a disambiguation page, so I'm moving that contents here:

Drifting is a driving technique in which the driver forces the car to oversteer and tries (through use of engine torque, the handbrake and the pendulum effect) to keep the rear end of the car sliding (and the car itself sideways) for as long as possible.

This technique has evolved from the driving style of the great rally drivers of the '60s and '70s, who deliberately caused their cars to oversteer before the entrance of a bend ("Scandinavian Flick" technique), to help them carry more speed through corners.

During the early 1990s, Japanese street racers started racing on deserted mountain roads, to avoid police. They experimented with oversteer and the pendulum effect, and soon became masters of the 'drifting' technique.

Within a short period of time, 'drifting' became popular around the world, promoted not only by word of mouth but also by various Japanese videos (e.g. the 'Option' videos), showing this technique at its finest. Today, 'drift' races are held in most first-world countries, where drivers must keep their cars sideways for the whole length of a racetrack while retaining relatively high speeds and total vehicle control.

Drifting is very difficult to master, and completely different from the traditional track racing styles. Most racers use rear-wheel-drive cars, which they consider more balanced.

Popular cars for drifting are : Nissan 200SX (AKA: 240SX/180SX/Silvia), Toyota AE86 (Corolla/Levin/Trueno), Nissan Skyline, Mazda RX-7.

Anyone wanting to do the merge? --surueña 14:48:23, 2005-08-31 (UTC)

[edit] Gotcha

Article was pretty good, I cleaned up a little bit of the content and added some where I thought appropriate... I have been drifting for a while here in japan, so I wrote what I know from personal experience. I am able to comment a lot on technique...

I killed the curb-jump technique thing... That is not a technique in anyone's book, you will end up "curb jumping" to the mechanic to fix broken suspension parts/frame/wheel.

even dirt drop is a little bit iffy.... most people will spin when they hit the dirt, it is rarely used as an ability to gain wheelspin... if people hit it they simply overran the edge of the track, or are going for a bigger wider drift. They have loooooong been wheelspinning by the time they hit it.

--Kantoking 16:54, 31 August 2005 (UTC)

[edit] KAZAAAAAAMAAA!!!!

I added the "Fun Facts" section. Feel free to add or delete at any time.

Do bear in mind, I have moved all facts relating to D1 Grand Prix to its own page where it belongs, Willirennen 18:48 09.02.2006 (UTC)

[edit] Engine overheating

This article says "Overheating can be a problem if you have a turbo because of the angle of the car, not much air passes through the intercooler."

To me, this does not make sense. It sounds like someone who does not understand how their car works made this up. As I understand it, the intercooler infact has nothing to do with cooling your engine, but is infact there to cool air as it before it enters the turbo to increase the air density (since it is at a lower temp) and consequently increase the amount of air entering the cylinder, thus improving the air/fuel mix and improving performance. Please let me know what you think, but I very much believe this sentence should be removed, as the intercooler is not associated with engine cooling. 144.131.192.62 10:55, 6 October 2005 (UTC)AcidRain

As with regards to the statement, it is false. Intercoolers do not cool the engine, they increase the power as stated by AcidRain. However, the fact that not much air passes through the intercoolers as a result of drifting still remains true. By the way, what happened to the picture of Ueo's car? --RESuperG 00:20, 7 October 2005 (UTC)

Perhaps the author confused "intercooler" with "radiator". It seems many of the authors of this page have english as their second (or third) language, judging by the overall grammer (sorry, had this article confused with Touge 05:50, 1 March 2006 (UTC)). Reduced airflow through the radiator may indeed lead to overheating in a high-output car at wide-open throttle and under boost. TRW 01:34, 1 March 2006 (UTC)

lol. The intercooler cools air coming from the turbo to the engine, not the other way around. That air being cooled allows the turbo to run at higher boost. Remember that a turbo is cramming air. When you compress air, it gets hotter. (same energy in less volume). If the car is moving sideways and the turbo is producing high boost (high temperatures) when the intercooler can't keep up, the car will overheat. Then again, I don't really think this information even matters or that it makes that much of a difference that the car is sideways. If the driver had a brain he would have tuned his car to drifting in the first place, so the boost wouldn't be so high that the reduced airflow through the intercooler would make the car overheat. --Mkt90 02:07, 1 June 2006 (UTC)

Can someone confirm this? I had always believed that compressed air was cooler, not the other way around as user Mkt90 just stated. Cirilobeto 07:46, 2006-08-12

Compressing air increases its temperature. (If it is then allowed to cool to ambient, then released, it cools as it expands, which might have given you that impression.) Anyway read Combined gas law RB30DE 23:10, 11 August 2006 (UTC)

Overheating is a potential problem on all drift cars (not just turbo). The engines are bouncing off the limiter, and the car speed does not match the drive wheel speed, so yeah airflow is a problem. Hence oil coolers are often used, and V-mount intercooler/radiator. Even then, a lot of drift cars can only do a couple of laps before the oil is sizzling, and they need to come in for a rest. RB30DE 20:22, 1 June 2006 (UTC)

Doesn't relate to the article, but I Partialy solved the problem by Adding some angled scoops and Steel Mesh sections on the hood, and putting some larger "Speed holes" on the side of the car than normal, and using hoses to make sure the air is getting through into the engine bay - Along with installing Oil coolers and the rest of the usual gear - It doesn't do massive amount of difference, but it does help keep the engine cooler, and I have less downtime needed to let everything cool down - But when I'm not in competition, I just practice with the hood off. Churba 11:24, 13 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Separate enties for D1GP and FD

I am planning to dive the D1GP and Formula D, its own entry, not to mention the drivers to make the page look tidier and they do deserve their own entries.

[edit] American stock-car roots?

Someone backstop me on this, and I certainly don't want to trivialize the Japanese influence on this sport, but I can recall hearing old-timers talk about "drifting" (and before you start, no, they were not talking about DRAFTING. I - and they - know the difference) in American dirt-track stock racing back in the '50's. I'm going to try to track down some hard-evidence references to this. But I know from old films of races at the time that full-size stockers, not just rally drivers, would drift their cars around the old dirt ovals back as early as the '50's - of course, by the time NASCAR became reputable and had moved onto pavement, drivers were driving the line instead of drifting - and they were referring to it by that name as well.

If someone has references, please feel free to go ahead and jump in on this, and if I can find any references, I'll post them for a possible article mod.

L. Greenway Macon, GA

American Stock Car Roots? Ummmm NO... (anon)

I added a brief reference to this in the article. A distinction is necessary between the more general term "drift", which is basically synonymous with "oversteer"; and the specific sport of competitive drifting, which is the topic of the article. A car in the context of any motorsport may "drift" in your usage of the word, but this article is about the events, people, cars, culture, and places involved in drifting as a sport unto itself, which originated in Japan in the past few decades.

Perhaps it would be worth a note that car enthusiasts from every culture have enjoyed sliding their cars sideways for the thrill or speed of it, but the Japanese were the first to organize this activity into a sport with rules.

AKADriver 19:07, 28 February 2006 (UTC)

Oversteer is the condition where the rear wheels lose traction and the car turns more sharply than the steering inputs alone would cause. This term applies whether it is intentional or not. Opposite lock or drifting is the intentional use of this technique. "Drifting" is the "sport" (sic) of doing this for show.

Perhaps we should rename Opposite lock to "Drift (motorsport technique)" and reference it here with a clarification blurb, since noone seems to refer to the technique as Opposite lock other than the original author of that article.

TRW 01:47, 1 March 2006 (UTC)

I'd agree to that. "Opposite lock" seems to more commonly only refer to the state of the steering gear while drifting, not an alternate name for drifting.

Also, Drifting does meet the qualifications for a "sport", much like other judged sports such as boxing or freestyle BMX. It is not, however, "racing", which is why I've tried to correct references to "drift racing" to read "drifting". (anon)

Technically oversteer is when the slip angle of the rear wheels is greater than the slip angle of the front wheels. That can be a stable or unstable condition, and does not necessarily involve opposite lock, or loss of traction. Drifting necessitates oversteer, but oversteer in no way implies drifting. Opposite lock is when the front wheels are pointed (relative to the car centre line) in the opposite direction of the turn. RB30DE 01:00, 2 June 2006 (UTC)

In the old days, before radial tires, we used to call drifting "turning a corner". (it's a joke, just not a good one). Gzuckier 16:01, 22 June 2006 (UTC) In my old coot's opinion, the young drifting fans would enjoy catching a dirt track race on ESPN, like the World of Outlaws last week. Forget having two cars on the track, put a dozen on and have them trying to pass each other.Gzuckier 16:27, 5 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Little changes

Made some minor changes in reference to the irish drifting scene, inclusion in list of profeesional series, inclusion of more popular irish car choices, change of irish drift series name, and irish drifting website didn't add anything else.

[edit] Jumps?

Can anyone confirm "jumps" on Irohazaka? Sounds like Initial D fantasy to me. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Spitzfan (talk • contribs).

Yeah...pure fiction. I doubt anybody would be crazy enough to actually DO that...its fiction just like Takumi's "rail drop" and his Trueno's "racing engine"...lots of stuff in Initial D is made up... —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 24.196.33.202 (talk • contribs).

Takumi's racing engine stuff is not made up, its a Group A Touring Car spec sourced from a AE111, seen from the recent edition of Banzai magazine was the Hasselgren Engineering AE86 from a Formula Atlantic racer with the same power output as Takumi's car...so that shows it does exist. Willirennen 15.10 28 March 2006 (UTC)

Man, no one signs comments anymore. But really that stuff is not 100% fictional. Although insanely rare, taking "jumps" and cutting over/through gutters has been known to happen, from what I can tell in both Japanese and American "street racing". They definitely do not warrant mention in an article though without correct citation. I have a couple videos, one from BMI and another from a home movie I think that show examples or a gutter/shoulder drop technique.--Oni Ookami Alfador^Talk|@ 01:17, 7 March 2006 (UTC)

• Hey, hey, hey... there ought to be mention that Intial D somewhat informally shows Keiichi Tsuchiya's backroads life story. It's been mentioned that Takumi even resembles his teenage character. Don't take it from me. Take it from Keiichi Tsuchiya Colonel Marksman 16:06, 29 March 2006 (UTC)

Keiichi Tsuchiya has shown the "gutter drop" technique in one of the BMI videos I downloaded called "The Touge." Aspects in Initial D are exaggerated like the amount of time one corner actually lasts. That is done for dramatic purposes but many of the discussions, particularly in 4th Stage, talk about aspects of race that are probable. As for the Jumps in Irohazaka, it's probable that someone can do that but there is a high risk that performing the jump will damage the car. Also, you'd have to angle the car in such a way as to not slam straight into the guardrail when you land. Another danger added to landing is that the car would have a high chance of swerving out of control. --Lonewolf26X 23:35, 22 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Sources

This article is in desperate need of sources. Where is the authoritative reference on the "technical" definition of drifting. I have plased several tags througout the article on the specific problem areas.--Oni Ookami Alfador^Talk|@ 04:55, 28 March 2006 (UTC)

The bit which quoted "Drifting "officially" began[citation needed] in the United States in 1996 with an event at Willow Springs racetrack in California hosted by the magazine Option" came from the December edition (issue 4) of Super Street in 1996. Dorikin, Inada and the Japanese Mooneyes Funny Car racer Kenji Okazaki were the judges, Rhys Millen and Bryan Norris was two of the entrants and the race was incidentally won by a Honda Civic. Before anybody removes this bit, I do have a copy of that magazine. Willirennen 14.30, 28 March 2006 (BST)

It needs to be cited in a reference section with the proper footnoting format. Since you have this magazine you are likely the most capable person to add this information. If you are not sure how to do this the information van be found through WP:CITE.--Oni Ookami Alfador^Talk|@ 19:05, 30 March 2006 (UTC)

can we cite the article??

[edit] Plagiarism

The history section seems to be copied from another web page: http://www.crutchfieldadvisor.com/ISEO-rgbtcspd/reviews/20031028/grand_prix.html?page=2

-- Wouter de Vries 11:00 , 7 may 2006

and this page to

http://d1gp.com.my/site/showthread.php?t=15

[edit] Rear-Engine

It might be noted that some people consider rear engined cars (Porches mainly) to be the most natural drifters. The pendulum effect works to great advantage in this configuration, and the cars tend towards throttle-off oversteer or drift. So while most traditional front engined cars must be "forced" to drift, this is not the case with the natural drifting of the rear-engined drive-train configuration. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 24.236.199.210 (talk • contribs).

This is also true to a lesser extent of mid-engine vehicles. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 24.236.199.210 (talk • contribs).

As soon as you said "some people" you doomed the notion of this making it into the article. weasel words cause way more problems than they solve. Your assertations are all completely OR and opinion as well. cars with engines behind the center of gravity do have a tendency to oversteer, but that does not make it any easier or harder to drift. Oversteer is not automatically drift. It just created a different way to handle it.--Oni Ookami Alfador^Talk|@ 03:56, 18 May 2006 (UTC)

Re: RR cars - This is a bizarre statement, the natural tendency of rear engine cars is to snap oversteer. It takes a very experienced drifter to be able to control one. Mid-engine cars can have the same vice, albeit to a lesser degree. Watch "The Drift Bible". RB30DE 20:29, 1 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] FWD Drift

Might I ask why my source-cited FWD drift technique was removed? Colonel Marksman 18:34, 21 May 2006 (UTC)

"lift off" or "lift throttle" are far more common names for that technique. I'll add back in that name, since it is sourced. At some point, vandals or inexperienced editors stripped a lot of the links and sources from this article. — AKADriver ☎ 16:01, 22 May 2006 (UTC)

The FWD Drift debate - I'm not taking a particular position, but I will point out that the definition of drifting in the opening paragraph - "When the rear wheels are slipping at a greater angle than the front wheels, the car is drifting" - clearly can include FWD cars. It's inconsistent to then later say FWD cars can't drift. So for internal consistency, either the definition or the later claim should be modified. I would agree with the statement that FWD cars can't link corners, but they can certainly achieve higher slip angles on the rear wheels than the front. RB30DE 22:35, 14 August 2006 (UTC)

I don't agree that FWD cars can't link corners - As it is something I do Quite Regularly. What is true, however, is that it is a particularly hard skill to master, as it involves some extremely precise pedal work, along with some fast and precise weight shifts, and timed just right - but once you have learned and mastered the skill, it becomes almost second nature. Churba 11:36, 13 November 2006 (UTC)

That's right. Those who say it can't be done just don't know how to do it. Crabapplecove 21:34, 13 November 2006 (UTC)

I have this distinct feeling you're taking the piss. Oh well, Jimmy crack corn. Churba 17:18, 17 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] opposite lock at start

I think this statement is untrue, the purpose of drifting is not to achieve opposite lock. I have watched many perfected and unperfected drifts and the necessity of opposite lock is to keep control. anyone can achieve opposite lock without drifting. Gonna edit that bit on the page unless someones replies with a decent argument. beastx 25/05/2006

[edit] Addition of vehicles with reference to ireland and uk.

Added a bit extra to list of vehicles used, it looks like ireland and uk were a bit neglected, someone should add some more about other european countries. beastx 25/05/2006

[edit] dirt drop

what the hell. I've never heard of a decent driver usibg the dirt in a rally to "drift" for the simple fact that you do slide but it is definetly less controllable. I think it should be removed. beastx 25/05/2006

It's demonstrated in Keiichi Tsuchiya's Drift Bible video. It stays. — AKADriver ☎ 15:08, 25 May 2006 (UTC) woops, I just noticed someone edited to that WRC drivers do that. That's no good at all. Dirt drop is done on a paved course. — AKADriver ☎ 22:45, 25 May 2006 (UTC)

It may be, in effect, executed on non-paved courses as well. If the dirt is packed extremely tightly, such as from grass roots and the like, it functions as pavement would to a lesser degree, and it could be argued that dropping into the looser dirt and mud around the "track" could still be used to this effect. Its not really article-worthy though I just felt it was worth mentioning in this instance.--Oni Ookami Alfador^Talk|@ 11:41, 27 May 2006 (UTC)

[edit] junk

I did a major cleanup on the "Cars" section. It was in clear disrepair and had numerous WP:NPOV, WP:OR, WP:WEASEL, and WP:CITE violations. Someone also removed the {{Citation needed}} tags present on the article. This in itself was a malicious and from my witness, unexplained act. If we do not cite sources, especially on disputed statements, and even more importantly on admitedly disputed statements, wikipedia is as good a reference as the tabloid trash they sell at supermarket checkouts. This is the biggest flaw of the wiki design, and it is easily fixable, yet laziness and objectivity on the part of users frequently prevents this from happening. Well, it needs to stop.--Oni Ookami Alfador^Talk|@ 11:38, 27 May 2006 (UTC)

I agree, I have a reasonable selection of written & filmed materials so will go through, adding sources where I can. RB30DE 20:40, 1 June 2006 (UTC)

You said what I was thinking, well done! Btw, I changed the spelling of oppisit to opposite (the correct spelling) --Joshuarooney2006 09:57, 13 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Drifting Rules

The section "Drifting Today" is incorrect with regard to some aspects of how drifting is judged. Complicating this is the fact that the rules are slightly different in different countries. I would like to see the basic judging guidelines added, perhaps country by country, so long as it does not become too unwieldy. I will probably add a section to this effect, please add/correct as necessary. RB30DE 20:40, 1 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Drawbacks?

Could somebody speak to the drawbacks of drifting? I don't know much about racing, but I got the impression that many professional drivers don't drift due to the loss of speed or control.

I read this at club4ag.com:

"With a clean lap of the track without passing, a smooth neutral cornering is the fastest way around. However, a driver can rarely get past another car by tracing the same line and obeying the laws of braking points...A drifting car is losing time because the traction and lateral grip is lower on a tire with skidding going on.

There are those who argue that "grip" style driving is the fastest way...that drifting is a slow way aroud corners... In theory this is very true... But, in multiple car competitions, the more options the driver has in terms of his line, braking points and skill, the more chances he'll have to pass the leading car that's blocking his "proper line."

In typical paved-course racing situations with modern tires, there is no usual need to "drift" per se, though tires are at their maximum grip when they are sliding just slightly (4-10 degrees or so). A car sliding at an angle of 4 degrees would not appear to be "drifting" to an outside observer. Sliding beyond this angle, producing a visible and showy drift, will decrease the maximum lateral acceleration and hence the maximum cornering speed will go down.

The club4ag article is correct in that a slide might be used to block a pass or otherwise put a driver in a better position with respect to other cars in a wheel to wheel race, but it's not common.

Racing on loose surfaces like dirt, gravel, or snow, or on poor tires, often involves "drifting" to set the car up for a higher corner exit speed. This sacrifices a little corner speed for a lot of straight line speed between corners. It's only worth the tradeoff in situations like this where corner speed is already very low.

This article is about the sport of drifting, where the goal is just to drift skillfully, not necessarily to go as fast as possible. — AKADriver ☎ 21:35, 22 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Cars

A fairly hard critic deleted a couple of sections including the cars section. I could almost understand that response, but it'd be nicer to modify it. It's a bit of a wishy-washy section because in a sense, most FR cars could do something resembling drift if pushed, but it's not really useful to include every FR car. I put the D1 lists to try and de-weasel it, but it's clumsy. Anyone able to make it neater? There's a few cars I'd remove from the list, but can't be bothered, number one on the execution list - the Soarer. RB30DE 12:15, 6 July 2006 (UTC)

Tabulated the lists. RB30DE 22:24, 14 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] External Links (again)

Its actually in pretty good shape I must say. Pretty much every link there is valid and doesn't seem to violate external links guidelines. However, its too big nonetheless. Even if they're all legitimate they should probably be reduced to at least less than 10. Its not something to take lightly and just go do because as I've said, they're all pretty much valid. I'm going to prune it some and post my rationale for it here. If anyone disagrees heavily feel free to revert it but if you do so please post your reasons why. Thanks. --Oni Ookami Alfador^Talk|@ 22:29, 13 October 2006 (UTC)

Pruning: First I would like to note that every site I removed was visited by myself first.

• D1 series: All of the local ones can be reached via the main site's front page. Also sorted this and the rest of the "official links" in order to place broader, more international groups up top and more region specific groups on the bottom.
• Thought about removing the polish drifting site but didn't seeing as how http://pl.wikipedia.org doesn't have its own drifting page from what I see.
• IDC Racing Was already in first section. Link no longer works. Sande411 23:27, 21 October 2006 (UTC)sande411
• Initial Drift Drifting clubs seem a little too small and specific to be posted.
• PFD - One seems to be enough and the other has a working enlgish language page
• PRODRIFT Same as prodriftseries
• D1GP Again Duplicate
• Lookout Drift Seems relatively narrow-focused, non-notable, and not a very complete site.
• eDRFT.com Up to date news on the industry with Tire Smoke for rumors as well as coverage from U.S. Australia and expanding to Europe and Japan in 07'

All Videos sites were removed. If people want that they can go to google. This sortof goes agains the external links policy anyways.

Same goes for the so called "grass-roots" sites. These fall under fansite rules and are generally unacceptable. I removed all but the most notable and seemingly most well constructed "coverage site"

• Drift & RWD Sport Magazine Sites for print magazines generally considered commercial and not allowed.

--Oni Ookami Alfador^Talk|@ 14:45, 15 October 2006 (UTC)

Regarding the print magazines: Drifting Magazine, a US publication, just folded last week. That leaves Drift & RWD Sport as the only remaining drift-related print magazine in the States. I believe it's non-profit too (enthusiast based), but not 100% on that one. In either case, after checking various other motorsports and sports wiki entries (including some locked ones), print magazines are considered informational sources and follow the rules. That would be like leaving Transworld out of a skateboarding entry.

I hardly see the use of keep IDC Racing as they are "sanctioned Practice Events and Demo's" and not a professional series.

[edit] Drift411

I don't understand why Drift411 would be removed since its been around as an online drifting community in the US before the FD series was even created. I don't know if you would call that a "fan site" or why that would be unacceptable? We have event coverage from around the globe and with out the fans drifting simply wouldn't be.

Sande411 14:25, 19 October 2006 (UTC)sande411

Who removed it? Click on the article and then click on the history link. Search through the versions and diffs and then post the URL of the diff so that we can see who removed it. Hu 14:32, 19 October 2006 (UTC)

Looks like it was User:Oni Ookami Alfador contribs (talk). Post an item on his or her Talk page asking why, and discuss it here or there, but don't vandalize. It is not professional to vandalize, and you don't get respect when you vandlalize. Hu 14:38, 19 October 2006 (UTC)

My advice to Sande411 is to register a new name and then to post carefully, observing all conventions, styles, and customs. Read up on the various Wikipedia:Welcome pages. Be bold, but use common sense and don't get angry at anything, just work the system and you will have much to contribute. Hu 07:31, 20 October 2006 (UTC)

This isn't a fansite and yes it was me. It is a fansite, nothing more. As for "We have event coverage from around the globe and with out the fans drifting simply wouldn't be."... exactly. There is already plenty of coverage linked. This seems to just be a case of one person getting upset because the site they choose to frequent is no longer pushed on the wiki. Bottom line is we have enough links already, still probably more than we should have after this cleanup that we don't need every random site someone decides is important. For the sake of inlusion I left every group that appears to sanction and operate large scale events and leagues. FD itself is a shameful display of professional drifting so it would do very little to compare it to that I must say. Instead of being blatantly argumentative please actually provide some specific examples of why it belongs other than "just because" or "its a good site". Name some events they've created, name notability they've attainted. Have they been mentioned in the media at all? All these things help. Griping about it without reading the rest of the talk page or checking the edit histories first won't.--Oni Ookami Alfador^Talk|@ 15:29, 21 October 2006 (UTC)

I don't mind that Drift411 is not listed as long as other coverage sites are not listed. DriftLive and the others are all coverage/fansites and that was my arguement. Sande411 23:32, 21 October 2006 (UTC)sande411

[edit] Who keeps adding in "taking in"?

This is the name of the motorcycle technique, not the car technique. I understand kansei, as well as lift-lift off (I'm referencing formula D judges and the drift bible here) whoever keeps adding it in, just note that it is a motorcycle thing and I'll stop deleting it.

It's sourced and verifiable as a name for the car technique. Not all that common, I'll agree. — AKADriver ☎ 00:34, 30 October 2006 (UTC)