Talk:Zeus

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Note: BC or BCE? This article has used the formula BCE since 20 September 2002. Constantly inflicting a change to "BC" is a jejune form of vandalism. --Wetman 00:15, 12 October 2006 (UTC)

Worship of Zeus originated among the Mycenean heirs of Minoans, where he was known as the Earthshaker. I had to insert Myceneans for obvious reasons. But the 'Earth Shaker' is Poseidon, the consort of the two goddesses of Crete and Mycenean Pylos, is he not? I've left that for you all to puzzle out. Wetman 03:21, 23 Nov 2003 (UTC)

Contents

[edit] Jupiter (mythology)

Shouldn't stupider get his own article? Sennheiser! 21:41, 7 Feb 2004 (UTC)

However, disregarding linguistic evidence, some people claim that the worship of Zeus originated among the Mycenean heirs of Minoans, where he was known as the Earthshaker.

Mycenean Linear B tablets were shown to be in Greek half a century ago, so I'm not sure where the "disregarding linguistic evidence" part comes from. Also, as Wetman pointed out, Poseidon the the eartshaker. If someone wants to track down what "Zeus" was in Linear B then the Myceneans might be worth a mention, but for now I'm just cutting it. Bacchiad 22:10, 14 Jul 2004 (UTC)

I shrunk the "Seductions" sections significantly. Nearly all the material in the sub-sections was duplicated word for word in the linked articles on the women/nymphs in question; in a few cases the article had a fuller explanation. In the couple of cases where there was less, I pasted the material from this page into Aegina (mythology) or Astreia or whatever. Then I cut out the text on each seductee, leaving only the wiki-links. I believe this makes the article more manageable and balanced. Please do revert if you disagree. Bacchiad 05:41, 15 Jul 2004 (UTC)

I cannot find any mention of the seductions in the article anymore. Were they removed? Or have they been moved to another page? If so which one?

In the epithets section for xenios, I changed "ready to avenge any wrong done to a stranger." to "any offense to xenia was an offense against Zeus." This way xenia is actually mentioned a linked too. Also, Zeus didn't always avenge misdeeds. In the case of the Trojan War, it was up to the suitors of Helen to avenge the misdeed against Menelaos. --~ Jared ~ 22:22, 4 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Minor vandalism fixes, 09/26/2006

While reading the article today I caught a couple of lines not handled by the revert some hours before my visit. Vandalism was introduced here:

(cur) (last) 21:00, 25 September 2006 65.96.67.0 (Talk) (→Zeus and Hera)

(cur) (last) 20:58, 25 September 2006 65.96.67.0 (Talk) (→Spoken-word myths - audio files)

and was carried through future revisions. The 9/26 revert didn't catch these, so I took them out by hand rather than revert the article further. Wingchild 17:49, 26 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Melissa

Does anyone have a citation for the goat-milk thing? Everything I've found says she plundered honey, which is where the meaning for 'Melissa' (honey bee) supposedly came about. Of course, those are no more reputable than this without a source, so... Melissa Della 09:02, 13 December 2005 (UTC)

Amalthea (mythology) for the goat-milk thing. Walter Burkert, Greek Religion for some context. --Wetman 09:05, 13 December 2005 (UTC)


You cannot beat Burkert! I just get excited when people bring him up. This has nothing to do with the article.

[edit] What?

"Christian patristic writers took up the suggestion with ethnu"? What? I would add a period to the sentence, but that doesn't even make sense. BAHSHJHGS

[edit] The "necklace"

What does Pausanias mean when, reviewing the site of the olympic festivals, he refers so casually to the "necklace" worn by Zeus pictured as a boy:

"The figure of Zeus as a boy wearing the necklace is the votive offering of Cleolas, a Phliasian" [1].

Does anyone recognize the necklace that Pausanias assumes we already know about? --Wetman 22:06, 17 March 2006 (UTC)

Probably "the necklace of Eriphyle"... Doing a search on Perseus for "necklace" there are several instances in which Pausanias mentions "the necklace" or "the famous necklace" with most instances referring to the necklace of Eriphyle. See also: Robe & Necklace of Harmonia 1. And Apollodorus tells us a bit of when Zeus messes around with "the necklace", here Seems like this necklace would deserve an article of its own... --gio 03:16, 18 March 2006 (UTC)
though the necklace shown to Pausanias was not "the necklace" worn by Zeus as a boy, I gratefully added Giorgio's Pausanias notes to Eriphyle.--Wetman 23:42, 24 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] "MIKE"

why does the article say mike/ michael????????????????? WTF!!!!

Someone vandalized this page by replacing approximately 10 "Zeus" to "Mike." I think I've corrected it all if I've messed up, sorry, but it's Wikipedia, so you can correct it yourself. :)

[edit] Athena

Shouldn't Athena be mentioned up top with his prominent children?

[edit] Collected etymology queries

What's up with the phrase in the intro: (in Greek: nominative Ζεύς, Zeús genitive Διός, Díos). It does not look like a declension. The German wikipeida says that "Zeus is in Old Greek, Dias in in New Greek", which also sounds suspicious to me. So, what is it? In other wikipedias, some parrotted English, others copycatted German, still others say nothing. I've looked up some more detailed linguistic texts, and it appears it is not so simple and probably deserves a full section. Mukadderat 21:12, 23 September 2006 (UTC)

The usual etymology of Zeus (Buck, Watkins) is from Indo-European *deiwos 'god', related to *dyeu- 'sky', 'day', 'bright'. The usual gloss is 'god of the bright sky'. What is the source for 'divine king'? If there is no documentation for this, I will change to the more usual gloss. --Macrakis 13:37, 21 April 2006 (UTC)

Dzeus and Dias: The article currently begins "Zeus or Dzeus"; but as far as I know, Dzeus is never (or very rarely) used in English, though it is closer to the ancient pronunciation. It continues "...or Dias (Greek: Δίας, Días)"; this is the modern Greek name, derived from the oblique forms (Ζεύς Διός), but again, as far as I know, Dias is never used in English. Unless I hear objections, I will remove both Dzeus and Dias. There was presumably an archaic nominative Δίς (Dis), but I don't believe this is actually textually attested. There are other archaic, dialectal, and poetic names (Ζηνός, Ζάν...) but these also don't appear in English. If someone wants to cover these variants, perhaps they belong in their own section, but not, I think, in the first paragraph. --Macrakis 19:25, 17 April 2006 (UTC)

Jove: Most of the way through the article there is a reference to Jove and "by Jove". Nothing in the text appears to tie it to Zeus. How is this related to Zeus - does it need to be cut?

In case you haven't figured it out yet, "Jove" is the same as "Jupiter", who is essentially equivalent to Zeus. elvenscout742 21:15, 2 November 2005 (UTC)

Removed: The root of the name is zeugnymi, greek for mating, as Zeus symbolizes the universal process of joining and disjoining. I checked Liddell and Scott, who give nothing but Sanskrit words for 'day' as the root for Zeus, not zeug-. Nor does their entry for 'zeugnymi' suggest any connection to Zeus. All of the above may well be true, but I'd like to have a source. --MichaelTinkler

Good point. This is the explanation I know but I'll have it checked in my books. I'll check it ASAP. BTW, I hope my english is good enough. --Jtheo (Greece).
'Zeus/deus' is certainly the more familiar PIE identification.

[edit] Cases

Zeus is the nominative, Dios is the genitive (if those links don't work a first, refresh the page a few times - there seems to be server problems at the other end). It's an irregular noun. --Tzekai 17:37, 24 September 2006 (UTC)

Not that straightforward. See section above. Mukadderat 17:45, 24 September 2006 (UTC)
Also, yes. I can confirm that Zeus is not used in Demotic Greek, the nominative being Dias and the genitive being Dia. Of course, Demotic Greek is not relevant in this article, as it emerged after Christianity. --Tzekai 17:55, 24 September 2006 (UTC)

BTW what is not that straightforward? If you want a "name and etymology" section, then write one. That Zeus is the nominative and Dios the genitive is sourced (the Perseus Project links above). Don't {{fact}} them! --Tzekai 18:03, 24 September 2006 (UTC)

Clearing up some things: 'Zeus' is used in demotic greek, as part of phrases that have remained for millenia, e.g. 'Xenios Zeus' (patron of the guests/foreighners). the genitive in demotic is both 'Dia' and 'Dios', although 'Dia' is by far the most common. and something else.... i have no idea why the 'facts' were asked:/ can someone dispute it? lol Hectorian 18:13, 24 September 2006 (UTC)
Did you read my question in the section above? And you just confirmed my suspicion: you write that "dia" is far most common. Why would one want to omit the more common version and add less common? I call this "sloppiness". I also don't understand why adding this microscopic piece of Greek grammar is important at all. Why not other declensions? This random bit of information in the intro causes a natural question in a person who does not know the topic, like me. Instead of explaining, some editors prefer to rush into an attack. Mukadderat 23:00, 24 September 2006 (UTC)
The genitive is useful information, it shows you that there's a stem starting with d- in addition to the one starting with z-. That's interesting for many reasons - see Dyeus. Haukur 23:08, 24 September 2006 (UTC)
You don't read my question carefully. Of course, any information is useful. But given without system it creates confusion and wondering only. Specifically, repeating, my major points:
  • In other language wikipedias something different is written (and this attracted my attention to this in the first place)
  • Our colleague Hectorian writes that Dia is far more frequent. So my question was "why less frequent case is provided?"
  • I am ot so lazy as some allege and did look up internet, and found some interesting comments about this issue (so my question is not so stupid as some may think ), but I am not an expert to improve this place myself.
And once again, it looks like sloppiness to me and I ask for explanation and fixing. If you think there is nothing to fix, let it be so. I have no vital interests in Greek gods to pursue this question further. Mukadderat 23:22, 24 September 2006 (UTC)
Its useful to know that the name Zeus is irregular and becomes Dios in the genititive, since many other Greek names are understood to derive from this declination: e.g. the Dioskouroi (=sons of Zeus), Dione (=female Zeus), Dionysos, etc. Perhaps a brief explanation of this somewhere in the article would help. Theranos 09:57, 21 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] The Oracle at Siwa

Is it just me, or is the following not quite coherent?

"The oracle of Ammon at the oasis of Siwa in the Western Desert of Egypt did not lie within the bounds of the Greek world before Alexander's day, but it already loomed large in the Greek mind during the archaic era: Herodotus mentions consultations with Zeus Ammon in his account of the Persian War. Zeus Ammon was especially favored at Sparta, where a temple to him existed by the time of the Peloponnesian War (Pausanias 3.18).
"After Alexander made a trek into the desert to consult the oracle at Siwa, the figure arose of a Libyan Sibyl."

I presume it was Ammon that loomed large in the Greek mind rather than the oracle of Ammon at Siwa in particular. Does Herodotus say that people went to Siwa to consult the Zeus Ammon oracle or to nearer temples devoted to him? But why did the Greeks adopt Ammon? (The link to Ammon is surprisingly unhelpful on this, which I think would be interesting information here. I believe Hercules consulted the oracle of Ammon in Libya, so I presume Ammon came into Greek mythology through contacts with Egypt.)

What does "the figure arose" mean?

The connection of this with Zeus isn't made clear enough for me. I presume this means that after Alexander's visit, the Greeks attached the idea of Zeus Ammon and the Libyan sibyl to Siwa. Since the article on the Libyan Sibyl mentions that the Libyan sibyl predated Alexander, "the figure arose" here is confusing, in my opinion, in the present wording.

qp10qp 17:09, 11 November 2006 (UTC)

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