Talk:World Series of Poker

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It would be nice to be consistent about which players deserve to have their names hyperlinked, and which players do not. I'm inclined to linkify the names of all players -- not only is that consistent, it also encourages contributors to write articles for each player (if you've won the WSOP, there's probably justification for a Wikipedia article on you). Any agree/disagree? Neilc 22:44, 26 Jun 2004 (UTC)

I've linked them all. Although some links are going to be red, or link to stubby articles, for a while I don't think there is a better way of determining how to cut people off in terms of signficance. Pcb21| Pete 18:09, 27 Jun 2004 (UTC)
CryptoDerk made the suggestion of including "second-tier" poker bios in PokerWiki. I think that's a good idea although I don't yet see a lot of enthusiasm in that community for writing bios. I would think anyone who actually won a WSOP Main Event, or probably multiple bracelets in the other events, deserves a Wikipedia entry. Beyond that it seems a little esoteric, but I'm eager to hear other opinions. - PhilipR 20:11, 26 Jun 2005 (UTC)
It says in the article, "Annie Duke surprised the world defeating 1989 Main Event winner Phil Hellmuth in the final hand." I have two objections to this: First, it wasn't that big of a surprise that she won; after all, she's been a pro gambler for at least ten years. And second, saying that she won on the last hand is redundant. All poker tournaments are decided on the last hand. Quicksilvre 22:52, 27 July 2005 (UTC)

Contents

[edit] Spoiler warning

I added the spoiler warning to this article because even though this event is over, ESPN televisizes the tournament several weeks later, and in fact started broadcasting the first episodes last night, which is what prompted me to read this article in the first place. While I wasn't upset to find this year's winner published here, some of our other readers might be. However, I generally don't engage in edit wars, so I'll not add it back in. Gentgeen 18:27, 7 Jul 2004 (UTC)

  • The winner, Greg Raymer, was given a full-treatment in the media when he won recently (before ESPN began televising). Additionally, even ESPN has his name in articles on their website, as the winner. Jewbacca 18:33, Jul 7, 2004 (UTC)
  • I have to agree with Jewbacca. If we start to add spoiler warnings to actual events we open up a right can of worms. For instance the 2003 WSOP has only just begun being televised in the UK. The 2004 might or might not ever be shown (depending on viewing figures for the 2003 event). How on earth would we know when to cut the spoiler warning out of the article? The only reasonable thing to do is not have it all, sorry. Pcb21| Pete 19:11, 7 Jul 2004 (UTC)
  • Well, they were airing commercials for online poker with Moneymaker and Rayner during the airing of the 2004 WSOP tourney... so it a spoiler warning really defeats the purpose anyway,--Madchester 14:22, 2005 Mar 11 (UTC)

[edit] re: "Golden Ovaries" nickname -- looks like vandalism, but it's not.

The world of poker nicknames certainly is wide and colorful. How about adding a reference to the article for this one so it doesn't look so much like vandalism?

Further, does anyone else share an interest in adding good references where appropriate for the rest of the article as well? Unfocused 17:29, 29 September 2005 (UTC)

What sort of references? Also, any reference should be in the Lucy Rokach article, not this one.
(Actually I had not known of the Golden Ovaries nickname until I saw a preview of the World Speed Poker Open, but that is apparently the nickname she is going by.) Essexmutant 23:02, 29 September 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Main Event Overview

This has grown considerably, but still contains a lot of valuable information. I would suggest moving it to another page, as the current page size of World Series of Poker is approaching 4 times the recommended amount. Any objections? Essexmutant 15:58, 9 January 2006 (UTC)

First it should be pruned to remove all "notable others" and list only "notables" at the final table. The way it is now is trite and even offensive. There needs to be some criteria... final table or perhaps top 25 if they have an Wikipedia article. A 76 finish is of no interest whatsoever, unless it was maybe the Pope. I'd say top 25 + a wikipedia article gets a person listed... with a limit of no more than ten notables for a year, so if #2 through #11 have articles, those are the ones listed. And as long as I'm at it, these flags should be eliminated. They are often wrong or just plain ridiculous... Amir Vahedi gets and Iranian flag while Scotty Nguyen gets a US one? That's just silly. Negreanu gets a Canadian one but Tiffany Williamson has a US one? There may be no more inconsistent and flat out wrong article information in the wikipedia than this one. 2005 20:51, 9 January 2006 (UTC)
  1. I'm not sure what you consider to be "trite and offensive" here. Perhaps you'd like to expand on this.
  2. I'm happy to help trim down the number of people per year. Your criteria seems reasonable.
  3. As for the flags, Amir Vahedi's article does not say he is American anywhere. Tiffany Williamson, on the other hand, has said that she considers herself to be an American despite living in England. If you would prefer to have a blanket method, then I suggest using either birth country or the flag used in the Hendon Mob's database.
  4. Even if it is trimmed down, it will still be over the page size limit. So, where do we stand on moving the whole of the Main Event section to a separate page regardless of the above? Essexmutant 09:31, 10 January 2006 (UTC)
I'd suggest removing the table completely, except the winner, and then links to articles on the specific years, where the remaining notables, with either the criteria I suggested or something else, could be linked. Picking and choosing people finishing in the top 100 is arbritrary and basically rude in that others aren't "notable" to be mentioned. I'd dispense with the flags completely as they don't make sense a large percentage of the time. Many players are born elsewhere but live in the US, and have for years and years. I suppose birth country would be better than current country if the flags were to be kept. I'm sure the Vietnamese guys though would want the old South Vietnam flag rather than the current one. 2005 10:21, 10 January 2006 (UTC)
As it stands, everyone listed is notable enough to have a Wikipeia article (except Barabra Enright.) I'm going to suggest keeping the flags, as they are also included at Late Night Poker, Ultimate Poker Challenge, World Poker Tour, Poker Superstars Invitational Tournament, Professional Poker Tour, etc. (It also helps to show the increased number of non-Americans to place in the WSOP, as opposed to its early years.) Also happy to go with birth country. I can have a go at creating separate pages for each year's WSOP if that's what you are suggesting. Is that agreeable? Essexmutant 10:34, 10 January 2006 (UTC)
Sounds fine, if you are willing to take on the consistency task that would be great. Some of the WSOP's already have their own pages, so it would be a cool task if every year got a nice consistent article (although obviously newer ones would be more in depth). I'd still though defintely keep notables to the final table or the top 30 at most. It is rather random as to why some people have articles and others don't, so it makes little sense to be listing people who finish in the 40s or 70s, just because someone made an article. Likewise any of the "day one" eliminations in recent years. Those are just silly as dozens of people with articles or without could be listed. 2005 20:58, 10 January 2006 (UTC)
I've made a start on this by trimming down the notable finishers on this page to just the top 30. I have also created pages for WSOP 1998, WSOP 1999, WSOP 2000, WSOP 2001, WSOP 2002 and WSOP 2003 and done some editing on WSOP 2004. Comments welcome of course. When there is a page for each WSOP I'll cut down the Main Event section to just the winners. (That'll probably be a few weeks yet.) Essexmutant 12:06, 11 January 2006 (UTC)
Looks good. 2005 07:56, 12 January 2006 (UTC)
Cool. I've carried on by creating WSOP 1983, WSOP 1984, WSOP 1985, WSOP 1986, WSOP 1987, WSOP 1988, WSOP 1989, WSOP 1990, WSOP 1991, WSOP 1992, WSOP 1993, WSOP 1994, WSOP 1995, WSOP 1996 and WSOP 1997. Essexmutant 15:48, 12 January 2006 (UTC)
Update - just to confirm (as I'm sure many have noticed) that articles for each year of the WSOP now exist. Essexmutant 16:56, 6 February 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Winning hands?

There are some unexplained card pairs marked after the names of the winners of each tournament. I think they should be explained somewhere because it's uncertain to - at least for me - what they do mean.

That's why we have a link to the article on poker. On Wikipedia, we tend to like to use links to explain that sort of thing unless it's absolutely necessary. Cuts down on redundancy. --Woohookitty(cat scratches) 21:12, 23 January 2006 (UTC)
It could be made into a separate column (it's the winning hand of each tournament, if known.) Any thoughts? Essexmutant 09:31, 24 January 2006 (UTC)
Wikibooks has a hand rankings article here. --Woohookitty(cat scratches) 18:44, 24 January 2006 (UTC)
I don't mean that the hand ranking should be explained. It would be completely unnecessary here. What I mean is that somewhere next to that table of winners there should be a text that would tell the reader what those two cards are and why they're mentioned here. Currently this is not mentioned and unaware readers may be guessing what does those two cards mean. To get an answer these users now start guessing which link tells the truth: is it the tournament page or the page about the winner. Those winning hands could actually have their own column in the table.
I made the column entry more clear. It could have its own column but it seems okay to me how it is now. 2005 22:55, 30 January 2006 (UTC)

Shouldn't the community cards be listed as well? Listing the pocket cards alone is a bit pointless without the community cards. For example, it lists Moneymaker in 2003 with a 5 & 4 unsuited, but what did he win with? A straight? Trip 5's? There is no mention of the full house he actually won with. --Holderca1 18:37, 11 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Flag changes

A question for 2005 and any other interested parties. We discussed above changing some of the flags around, and the preferance appears to be on birth country. I'll start off by changing everyone in Category:Vietnamese poker players to the South Vietnam flag (). Is it worth me changing Johnny Chan and David Chiu to China whilst doing it? Once this is out of the way, we can look further at some of the others. Essexmutant 11:46, 29 January 2006 (UTC)

I'd say yes... I mean it is worth doing in terms of consistent correctness, not necessarily that it is a high priority use of your time. 2005 20:42, 29 January 2006 (UTC)
To make the encyclopedia of the most value, it should add value. It's not necessarily something I'll do in a short space of time, but I'll get round to it at some stage. Essexmutant 21:05, 29 January 2006 (UTC)
Update - I've changed the flags for everyone in Category:Vietnamese poker players. I'll have a look at some of the others soon. Essexmutant 18:31, 31 January 2006 (UTC)
2nd update - Johnny Chan and David Chiu now changed also. Essexmutant 17:51, 1 February 2006 (UTC)

This seems silly. Is it even needed? Is the flag shown during the award ceremony? I don't think so but if it is then that's probably the only reason to include. Chess champion has similar problems. Bobby Fischer is no longer a US citizen. The Russians were born in USSR, even though their country of origin states Russia. I'd prefer to get rid of it, and have the appropriate articles on the players mention their own nationality, as they see it. Putting it here just seems like a good chance to be picky and choosy for nationalism or some such. --M a s 21:52, 7 June 2006 (UTC)

I see no reason to have flags and lots of reasons not to have them. They are only appropriate on pages for "team" style tournaments. People don't play for a country, and may in fact despise their birth country. Nationalism has nothing whatever to do with a tournament like this, or poker for that matter. It's like including their shoe size. 2005 23:14, 7 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] 1970 Number of Entrants

In the origins section it mentions there were 7 players. In the table it shows 38 entrants. What am I missing?

Sucker straight 15:22, 19 February 2006 (UTC)

That is odd. I found "The epic battle between Moss and the Greek sparked an idea in Benny Binion’s head, and in 1970 he invited the best poker players he knew, including Johnny Moss, Doyle Brunson, Amarillo Slim Preston, Brian “Sailor” Roberts, Puggy Pearson, Crandall Addington, and Carl Cannon to play No-Limit Texas Hold’em against each other in front of a crowd" Since it says "including" and lists 7 names, I'm guessing the 38 is correct. (Unattributed response by Mateo_LeFou)

[edit] T♦?

As far as i can tell, i have no clue as to what this card is. What is a T? Does it mean 10? if so it should be changed to 10 as the other examples are. Lebanese Sam Farha J♥ T♦ OKH 18:33, 25 May 2006 (UTC)


[edit] A cap on WSOP entrants?

Someone noted on this page that there is an "official cap" of 8000 in the Main Event; however, this is not confirmable. Barry Shulman reported on his blog[1] that there is absolutely no cap and Harrah's will try to accomodate as many players as possible. Lastly, as the Main Event is an "open" event, Harrah's could be subject to legal problems if they capped the event at a certain amount of entrants. I have deleted all references to a cap on entrants.

Clearly there's no point in mentioning that here when we'll know the facts in a few weeks anyway. --LDC 17:33, 24 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] First WSOP?

The original World Series of Poker was started in 1969 by Tom Moore of San Antonio, Texas at the Holiday Hotel and Casino in Reno and was an invitational event. This inaugural event was won by Crandell Addington

Later on it states that the 1970 WSOP was the first, and there is no article for the 1969 WSOP on wiki, while all other years are represented in articles and in the footer box for WSOP. So what's the deal with this 1969 tournament? Someone should clarify exactly what it was and how it is related to, but not included as a WSOP (unless I'm wrong about that and whatever it was should be clarified)... TheHYPO 06:50, 31 July 2006 (UTC)

I just read this article titled "No bluffing. World Series of Poker started in Reno"[2] in the article it mentions that by 1970 Benny Binion got the rights to the event and renamed it the World Series of Poker and moved it to Las Vegas Sirex98 11:41, 12 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] 1971/72 WSOP?

I know I should mention this in the 1971 article, but I figure few are likely to see it there. In the GSN program 'anything to win' (a documentary series) on an episode about Amarillo Slim, they reference that in 1971 "Slim gave Moss a run for his money, but played second fiddle to Johnny's second straight title." I don't know if this is meant to imply that he actually came second, but someone else is listed as coming in second in that tournament. Is the show exaggerating, or is the article in error? (it seems to lack other details including everyone else who was at the final table)... If nothing else, he can be added to the list of those that were at the final table, even if his position is unknown.

According to Slim, he won the 72 table with a King and a Jack, though suits aren't mentioned. The flop was King-8-8, and Puggy's hand isn't described. Don't know if you can list the winning hand without the suits, but if it helps, there it is. TheHYPO 07:02, 31 July 2006 (UTC)

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