Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Minnesota State Highways

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[edit] Infobox template

I am seeking help to design the infobox that will appear on the article pages. The information to appear in the box is on this project page. Station Attendant 22:28, 3 March 2006 (UTC)

[edit] SpaceJunkie wants to help with the WP:MNSH

I'm willing to help out with the WikiProject: Minnesota State Highways. I'm new to creating Wikipedia articles, but I'm sure I'll get the hang of it.

I live in central Minnesota, so I'd be willing to supply information about highways that serve around my area (Brainerd, St. Cloud, etc.), as needed.

I tried my luck, updating the MN-371 and by creating the article for MN-301, hopefully according to the standards of using the infobox on the page. I would appreciate it if whoever is in charge with this project lets me know if I'm doing things the right way, or what I should do to fix anything. My only question was, am I supposed to superimpose the route number of the Highway shield sign? If so, what font/size am I supposed to use, or do I just guess and check?

Thanks

SpaceJunkie 02:09, 12 March 2006 (UTC)

Not sure about the signs... you're doing good so far. {{Minnesota State Highway WikiProject}} goes on the article talk page though. Also you can just do spaces instead of the underscore in links. --Rschen7754 (talk - contribs) 02:12, 12 March 2006 (UTC)
  • Eventually I hope to upload an image for every MN State Highway shield to the Commons, so that the numbers will be there.Station Attendant 17:03, 12 March 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Shield images

For shield images I think that we should have a standard name to keep it easier to use the images in an article. It looks like the current way to name the images is MNHighwayXX. I think that this is a good way to do it. Also, should we look at making SVG images or stay with PNG for now? I have tried to make a blank shield with Inkscape but I couldn't get it to work, so someone else would have to take a look at that. I am going to create a subarticle on the project page that lists all of the shield images that we have now so that we know which ones that we have. --Station Attendant 22:44, 27 March 2006 (UTC)
For now, I am working on the list of shield images at my sandbox. --Station Attendant 23:21, 27 March 2006 (UTC)
I've been doing the shield images in PNG format at work, mainly because I have The GIMP there and it doesn't save in SVG format. I have Paint Shop Pro at home, but I don't know if it does SVG. For now, I think the PNG format is working fine, and it scales decently.
Also, I've done the following shields that aren't on your sandbox yet:
Image:MNHighway115.png
Image:MNHighway149.png (this was a pain to do, because I got the kerning wrong)
Finally, a tip: If your graphics program has an anti-aliasing feature for text, turn it on -- it makes the text much more smooth. --Elkman - (talk) 00:03, 28 March 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Minnesota State Route Marker

A blank Marker
Enlarge
A blank Marker

Hi, I created a SVG for the Minnesota State Route Marker. The colors should be right, an also the aspect ratios - if not, give me the right rgb colors and I'll fix that. Since I'm not from the U.S. I'm not too keen on making a SVG for every PNG Image out there ... but, if anyone neads help, drop me a line @ de:Benutzer:Ucc.

In the commons I added a new category (commons:Category:Minnesota_State_Route_markers) an I allready created a marker for Route 62:

If you want me to rename the Images or the categorys in the commons, just tell me. --ucc 10:52, 30 September 2006 (UTC)

Hey, I renamed them to the MN-xx.svg convention (Image:MN-62.svg) and I'll upload a template to the Commons. --ucc 21:59, 23 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Category:Wikipedia requested photographs in Minnesota

Many articles covered by this WikiProject lack photographs. As part of a subcategorization of the requested photos category, there is now a category for Minnesota articles needing photos - to use it, just add {{reqphotoin|Minnesota}} to the article's talk page. I have only added a few articles to the category so far, but it would be an easy way to make an extensive list Minnesota-related articles lacking photos. I hope you find it useful! TheGrappler 06:57, 23 April 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Infobox terminus shields

  • I am working on the Minnesota State Highway 16 infobox to put shields in at the termini, Dexter and La Crescent. The one for Dexter is going to be the I-90 shield, but how should I do the one for La Crescent? Should I just leave it blank or use for Wisconsin 16? --Station Attendant 21:28, 22 May 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Move to "Highway X (Minnesota)"

Highway X seems to be the most common name used. Thus we should move the articles in accordance with use common names and avoid neologisms. --SPUI (T - C) 21:26, 23 July 2006 (UTC)

Not to start a shouting match, but could you explain why Minnesota State Highway 16 is a neologism? I see no need to change the naming. --Station Attendant 23:32, 23 July 2006 (UTC)
[1][2] It's pretty clear what the common name is. --SPUI (T - C) 15:59, 24 July 2006 (UTC)
The searches are not comparable, and in any event do not establish what the "common name" is. In conversation people in this state would not use constructs like those suggested here; they would likely give directions by stating "Take 3 south to Faribault, then west on 60 to 14, then west on 14 to New Ulm". Old-timers might say "Trunk Highway 3"; people might say "Minnesota 60" or "Minnesota Highway 60"; or they might say "Highway 14." All are in common useage; none are new constructs. What is being discussed here is an arbitrary (in the neutral sense of that term) convention to apply. As the existing terminology is both in common usage and correct I see no reason to change. Kablammo 18:21, 24 July 2006 (UTC)
"Minnesota State Highway X" is common usage? --SPUI (T - C) 19:21, 24 July 2006 (UTC)
Actually, yes.[citation needed] --Rschen7754(talk - contribs) 20:42, 24 July 2006 (UTC)
Here are some citations for this usage.[3][4][5][6][7][8][9]Kablammo 02:59, 26 July 2006 (UTC)
As county roads in Minnesota typically are numbered, it is common to specify whether a numbered road is a state or county highway. We rarely use "Route" (we're told we pronounce it funny anyway) and outside of MnDOT contracts it is uncommon to hear the term "Trunk Highway" as that has fallen out of common usage. Kablammo 20:50, 24 July 2006 (UTC)
So you use "State Highway X"? --SPUI (T - C) 21:14, 24 July 2006 (UTC)
Yes, that is used. Kablammo 21:22, 24 July 2006 (UTC)
But not "Minnesota State Highway X"? --SPUI (T - C) 21:23, 24 July 2006 (UTC)
Yes, but more likely in formal communication. In casual conversation we probably would say "Minnesota x" or "State Highway x" as those are shorter. And of course "Highway x" is used also, but that doesn't specify whether it is a federal, state, or county highway (although "County Road x" or "County x" likely are more common than "County Highway x). Kablammo 21:36, 24 July 2006 (UTC)
I see no need to start moving the Minnesota highways either. Jonathunder 01:27, 24 July 2006 (UTC)
Agree; no need to move. Kablammo 04:54, 24 July 2006 (UTC)
There is no need to move. --Rschen7754 (talk - contribs) 16:23, 24 July 2006 (UTC)
Since it seems "no move" is favored I'll go with that for now. I think either could work and follow common terms, but why go to the trouble I say. JohnnyBGood t c VIVA! 21:19, 24 July 2006 (UTC)
Agree. I asked a few people and it was always "minnesota state highway X" or "Minnesota highway x" -Ravedave 21:57, 27 July 2006 (UTC)

The article title can probably remain at "Minnesota State Highway X" as long as suitable redirects are made. Also, the bolded text in the intro should definitely be the proper (correct/legal) name of the route. --Polaron | Talk 22:28, 24 July 2006 (UTC)

As set forth below, the correct/legal name of a route depends on which Minnesota resource you consult. Interestingly, the map key for the official Minnesota State Highway Map put out by MnDOT do not use the "Trunk Highway" or "TH" terminology in referring to road markers on the map, but rather refers to "state highway route marker" [10] (but the mileage computation table and the mapped markers between junctions does use the term "trunk highways", a category which includes U.S. highways.) "State Highway" is clearly in common usage, even by MnDOT.
I suggest the following:
(a) Keep the existing title, as suggested above. That clearly and immediately distinguishes between state highways and other highways in Minnesota. (A "highway" in Minnesota can be county, state, or federal; a "trunk highway" can be state or federal.)
(b) Start individual road articles with the construct "Minnesota State Highway x, also referred to as Trunk Highway x, is . . . " That seems to cover the bases. Kablammo 14:36, 25 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] References from the MNDOT site

MNDOT is occasionally inconsistent:

  • Rest areas at 210, 60, 61 say "Minnesota State Highway x"
  • The rest area at Gooseberry Falls has abbreviations for "MN61" and "TH 61" (Minnesota 61 and Trunk Highway 61, I'm guessing). (The title calls it "Goosebury Falls", which is a misspelling.)
  • This Mn/DOT news release says that the bridge being replaced is "Highway 25", but the detours are on "State Highways 19 and 5".
  • This news release refers to Trunk Highway 87 and Trunk Highway 64.

From a legal perspective, the following are important:

I'm presenting this as information only, not as endorsement of any particular system of naming. In other words, someone else can figure it out. --Elkman - (Elkspeak) 04:27, 25 July 2006 (UTC)

The Minnesota Code of Agency Rules shows terminology used by state agencies. For example, certain fishing areas are defined by a type of metes-and-bounds description with formats like this: " . . . thence north to U.S. Highway No. [x]; thence east to State Highway No. [y]; thence south to County Highway No. [z], . . ".[11]. That section was not promulgated by MnDOT, but does show how another state agency distinguishes between federal, state, and county highways in setting regulations for the public. Kablammo 06:47, 25 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] More on terminology

The differences of opinion on terminology are reflected on changes made in other pages, including those for Minnesota State Highways 33 and 16. In the interests of having relevant discussion in one place, I reprint here the (current) discussion page from the latter highway[12]:

[Start of MN 16 Talk Page]

[edit] Nomenclature

I changed the opening sentence to read:

"Minnesota State Highway 16, also referred to as Trunk Highway 16 or TH 16, is a two lane highway in Southeast Minnesota that follows the route of Old U.S. Highway 16."

The use of the term "State Highway" is consistent with Minnesota usage, and also helps distinguish this road from Houston County Highway 16. Kablammo 22:03, 25 July 2006 (UTC)

I removed the first "Minnesota", as it is bad grammar. "Minnesota's State Highway 16" would be fine but redundant in this case. --SPUI (T - C) 00:06, 26 July 2006 (UTC)

I guess we Scandanavians just don't know how to write.[13][14][15] [16] [17] [18] Looks like the National Park Service[19] and the Army Corps of Engineers[20] don't either. But more to the point: "Minnesota State Highway 16", "Minnesota Wild Rice", and "Wikipedia article" are all nouns, and comport with the rules of grammar. See this article [21] for a discussion. Kablammo 02:11, 26 July 2006 (UTC)

[End of MN 16 Talk Page]

I hope that that we can reach agreement on both the usage for the titles, but also avoid constant re-edits of text on the same basic issue. Kablammo 02:28, 26 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Wikipedia:State route naming conventions poll/Part2

Your state is invited to participate in discussions for its highway naming convention. Please feel free to participate in this discussion. If you already have a convention that follows the State Name Type xx designation, it is possible to request an exemption as well. Thanks! --Rschen7754 (talk - contribs) 00:26, 4 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Extended part II voting

Since there was controversy on WT:USSH over what the common name of Minnesota state highways are, polls have reopened regarding the common name. See WT:USSH to comment or vote. The poll will close at 11:59 PM UTC on October 8. Thanks. --TMF T - C 14:03, 1 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Response from the Minnesota Department of Transportation

I submitted a question to the Minnesota Department of Transportation regarding the official naming of Minnesota highways. Here is the response from Jerry Baldwin, Library Director. (My original questions are in bold.)

The question you submitted to info@dot.state.mn.us was forwarded to Mn/DOT Library for a response.

1. Is the official name of a highway of the form "Minnesota State Highway x", "State Highway x", "Trunk Highway x", or something else?

I can find no document specifying what constitutes an "official name" in relation to numbered highways that constitute the state highway system. In almost all state documents the individual highways are referred to as "THx." The use of the designation "TH" or "Trunk Highway" began with the amendment to the Minnesota Constitution ( http://worldcat.org/oclc/8294090 ) that created the system of highways administered by the state, adopted in 1920, and has been used in subsequent legislation ( http://www.revisor.leg.state.mn.us/stats/161 ).

2. If the official name of a highway does not start with "Minnesota", is it acceptable to refer to highways as "Minnesota State Highway x" in a work like Wikipedia that is used within all 50 states, as well as outside the USA?

The use of the state name preceding a highway number is common practice, but is not designated as "official" or "acceptable" in relation to Minnesota highways. There might be legislation in other states that adopt "offical" designations.

3. Are there any good examples of publications, such as AASHTO documents, that refer to multiple state highway systems that could be used as a preference for this discussion?

AASHTO has issued, and from time to time updates a publication titled "United States Numbered Highways" ( http://worldcat.org/oclc/37586174 ). However, that policy document applies only to the designation and signing of the system of U.S and Interstate highways and provides for consistent numbering and signing of highways that cross state borders or are part of the Interstate highway system. Standards for the numbering and signing of highways wholly within any given state vary from state to state.

Please let me know if I can be of further help.

--Elkman - (Elkspeak) 18:28, 2 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Project directory

Hello. The WikiProject Council has recently updated the Wikipedia:WikiProject Council/Directory. This new directory includes a variety of categories and subcategories which will, with luck, potentially draw new members to the projects who are interested in those specific subjects. Please review the directory and make any changes to the entries for your project that you see fit. There is also a directory of portals, at User:B2T2/Portal, listing all the existing portals. Feel free to add any of them to the portals or comments section of your entries in the directory. The three columns regarding assessment, peer review, and collaboration are included in the directory for both the use of the projects themselves and for that of others. Having such departments will allow a project to more quickly and easily identify its most important articles and its articles in greatest need of improvement. If you have not already done so, please consider whether your project would benefit from having departments which deal in these matters. It is my hope that all the changes to the directory can be finished by the first of next month. Please feel free to make any changes you see fit to the entries for your project before then. If you should have any questions regarding this matter, please do not hesitate to contact me. Thank you. B2T2 22:50, 25 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] County Road shields

What's the best way to do county road shields? We have some counties using only the blue pentagon (i.e. Ramsey), some using just the white square (usually rural) and some that use both (i.e. Washington). I did read somewhere that the pentagon is used for CSAHs and the square for normal county roads. Should we pick one or the other as a standard? Or try to go by each county's usage? Something else? --Sable232 17:56, 2 November 2006 (UTC)

I think shield usage depends on the county, for example Scott county uses all pentagonal, and Dakota county uses pentagons on "major county roads (usually ones that cross the whole county)", and square on others. Personaly I think each road article created should use the shiled that the county is using to mark the road. --MNAdam 20:48, 4 November 2006 (UTC)
That sounds good, as long as we can find out which one to use. For now I'll concentrate on the pentagons as they are needed. The square county shield blank I made looks pretty bad. --Sable232 07:16, 5 November 2006 (UTC)
I found this page: List of highway shields in the United States, it has some shields that could be converted into county shields. --MNAdam 18:34, 5 November 2006 (UTC)
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