Talk:Whitman massacre
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[edit] Duplication
This article and the article Walla Walla Massacre deal with the same incident, with slightly different perspectives. Perhaps a merge is in order? WBardwin 08:03, 1 August 2005 (UTC)
[edit] Incorporation?
Perhaps there should also be an incorporation of the Cayuse War article's information. Schwael 06:22, 14 August 2005 (UTC)
[edit] Facts?
- "The Cayuse and Umatilla involved in the massacre had previously lived at Waiilatpu, the mission founded by the Whitmans."
- "Indians often killed their medicine man, or shaman, if patients died."
Are these facts? Is there a reference for them? They sound fishy to me. Perhaps they lived at the site where the mission was set up, but at the actuall mission?? The second one just sounds made up to me, but I don't know much about their cultures, so it could be fact... Schwael 08:20, 14 August 2005 (UTC)
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- Good questions. As to the latter, [1] supports the assertion: "In their culture a shaman or curer who failed was subject to death". I can't speak for the site, though it claims to be "... the official state directory and fact book about all levels of government in Oregon".
- There is also [2] "In May 1837, Umtippe (Splitted Lip, a Waiilatpu Cayuse chief) threatened to kill Dr. Whitman if Umtippe's wife is not cured of her illness, accusing the doctor of poisoning her with his treatment. His younger brother, Yehekiskis, recently had shot the tewat (shaman, medicine man) who had unsuccessfully treated a war chief at Walla Walla. [SOURCE: the diary of Narcissa Whitman provides the proper date for this incident reported in the Letter of John Toupin, 9/24/1848 in Senate Documents, 35th Cong., 1st Sess., vol. 12, Ex. Doc. 40, pp 18-21. Toupin reported that this incident happened in 1838 but Narcissa wrote in her letters for 1837 about this incident and, in April 1838, that Umtippe was again very friendly with the Whitmans after a time of tension.]"
I'll see what else I can find. -- Mwanner 21:34, August 14, 2005 (UTC)
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- Thanx for the thorough followup! I find your first reference more helpful than the second, since my question wasn't so much about their reasons for wanting to kill him, but about it being a common tendency towards their own people. I look forward to any answers you can find to my first question. Both assertions seem in somewhat contradictory to the situation as it is explained in the Cayuse War article. I too will look for more. 04:58, 16 August 2005 (UTC)
- Sorry, I lost track of this for a bit... The second source has that "His younger brother, Yehekiskis, recently had shot the tewat (shaman, medicine man) who had unsuccessfully treated a war chief at Walla Walla", which at least suggests that it wasn't all that safe being a shaman.
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- I'm not too put off by the discrepancy between this and the Cayuse War article, though it would be good to bring them more into agreement. But events like this are often over-determined: there are a number of explanations, any one of which might be sufficient, but all of which may, in fact, be true. Nevertheless, I would like to find at least one thorough, reliable source to work from. So far, I think we've been trying to pull together and reconcile various sources not all of which are altogether sound. Mwanner 22:32, August 29, 2005 (UTC)
Confirmation: My history teacher confirms the 2nd fact.
[edit] Tiloukaikt
Please look over the quick stub I created for Tiloukaikt. Much of the information is similar to that in this article and the Cayuse War, and I swiped the image as well. Comments and edits always welcome. WBardwin 06:12, 18 August 2005 (UTC)
- I guess this was written before you turned it into the fairly full-blown article it is now. It's very nicely written, though it leaves out some of the elements that have been raised in the other ariticles-- the gift-giving element, and the John Sutter issue.
- What's your feeling about the three separate, overlapping articles? Merge, keep separate but strive for consistency? I don't mind them being separate, but it does seem to almost triple the work of keeping them all good and in synch. -- Mwanner 00:06, August 30, 2005 (UTC)
I vacillate between thinking that many smaller articles are intimate and interesting and large, comprehensive articles are impressive. There are many arguments on both sides. In this case, I think that Tiloukaikt and Marcus Whitman, as people, would both deserve a brief biography. However, historical incidents, like the Massacre and the Cayuse War, could be more appropriately combined. Will be glad to work on any arrangement of the articles, however....And, Mwanner, thank you for the writing compliment. WBardwin 07:39, 31 August 2005 (UTC)
