Talk:Welsh Highland Railway

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[edit] Moving things and editing

I've moved a few sections of this article about as it did not seem to flow on first reading: hopefully no-one will mind too much! The main changes have been to move the locomotive data towards the end (it broke up the flow of the text); and to add a section on Phase 4 works which I hope can be updated as work progresses.

I've taken the opportunity to re-name various sub-sections WHR (Porthmadog) and WHR (Caernarfon) for continuity and to put them in the same order wherever they appear. I've no particular reason for putting WHR(P) above WHR(C) (see below!) other than that being the way round the majority were to start with. As a 'neutral' on the issue, I would however suggest that this is a sensible order as WHR(P) existed before WHR(C)...

The 'Route' section could do with expanding, probably on a historical basis as I have tried to give a brief outline of the route from Rhyd Ddu to Porthmadog in the 'Future' section which deals with Phase 4. Not least, the route map now causes a significant white space which needs to be got rid of, even afterswitching it to the left, which removes the conflict with the picture of Russell. vanoord 17:45, 6 November 2006 (UTC)

Modified article some more to add information on Phases 1, 2 & 3. These mostly deal with the history of the reconstruction work, but could do with some more route information and possibly some illustrations. This might leave the "Route" section above to be used for a short-ish history of the original construction of the WHR. vanoord 19:30, 6 November 2006 (UTC)

I've added a few pictures but I'm lacking anything from Phase 2, Phase 4 or indeed the WHR (P). No doubt one day I go out with the camera, but if anyone has anything, then it would brighten the article up somewhat. Without wishing to fan the flames too much, I suggest that the sections "Controversy and Complication", "Obstruction and Objections" and "Two Welsh Highland Railways" would benefit from some re-working and condensing. While the history of the disputes may be fresh in the minds of those involved (see below!), to me it doesn't justify that amount of space taken and I very much doubt the impartial observer will find it that interesting. If there are no objections or someone doesn,t beat me to it, I'll have a go at this in a while.

In the meantime, the sections on Phases 1, 2 and 3 would probably benefit from having some route description added in to complement the rebuilding history to give an overall picture of the railway as it is now. vanoord 19:00, 6 November 2006

[edit] Welsh Translation

I have added what I have called the brand name (I don't think this is a very good name for it, but cannot think of a better one), as the direct translation is not the one that will be used. Rheilffordd Eryri will be used, which is Snowdon Railway (I believe, but I don't know Welsh), so I felt it important to include this. If you can think of a better way to include it, I'd be grateful.--John 08:01, 24 August 2005 (UTC)

I'm got into a muddle trying to work it out too. Anyway, "Rheillffordd" = railway, and in Welsh the order of words is basically backwards to that in English. "Eyri" actually means Snowdonia, not Snowdon, e.g. "Awdurdod Parc Cenedlaethol Eyri" is Snowdonia National Park (compare "Awdurdod Parc Cenedlaethol Arfordir Penfro" Pembrokeshire Coast National Park). Note the Snowdon Mountain Railway is "Rheilffordd yr Wyddfa" which does mean "Snowdon Railway" (no mountain). Dunc|☺ 12:06, 24 August 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Concerning Stations

In order to avoid conflict of description, the 1998 agreement (q.v.), between the two separate organisations working together in the restoration of the WHR, determined that where it became neccessary (during the reconstruction era) to diferentiate between the two halves of the endevour, the 'northern end' would be called WHR (Caernarfon) and the 'southern end' WHR (Porthmadog). I hope we can agree to follow the same convention. Whilst outside the said agreement, I hope we will also agree that Porthmadog railway station is not the southern terminus of WHR (Porthmadog). NoelWalley 16:11, 5 February 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Ffestiniog Railway Category and proposed Welsh Highland Railway category

I recently created a new category for articles related to the Ffestiniog Railway. This spawned a debate about whether the category should include Welsh Highland Railway articles or whether it would make sense to create a separate Category:Welsh Highland Railway. This took place on User:Noel Walley's talk page. With permission of those taking part I have copied it here for wider discussion. I'll also link to this from the Ffestiniog Railway talk page.

One word from me: categories are a useful organizational tool on Wikipedia. I'd suggest we try to stay out of the politics of the WHR vs. FfR and concentrate on the question of what's the better organizational mechanism for Wikipedia articles. Best, Gwernol 16:55, 1 September 2006 (UTC)

Hi, I see you have created Category:Ffestiniog Railway, however I am not convinced is it appropriate to include RhE in this. Surely there should be a separate Welsh Highland Railway category to cover the Porthmadog to Caernarfon activities (which then could also include the Gelert's Farm activities, and the constituent companies of the trackbed - PBSSR, Creosor Tramway, and the old WHR. It was an attempt to bring all the stations together that resulted in the Category:Heritage railway stations in Gwynedd. I know from personal experience on the ground it know this can get very messy. Pencefn 11:22, 1 September 2006 (UTC)

Actually I created the category, not Noel. I have no problem with their being a separate Category:Welsh Highland Railway. However the Welsh Highland Railway article should be in both categories (as, for example, should Porthmadog) since the FfR plays a significant role in WHR history (and vice versa). Gwernol 12:15, 1 September 2006 (UTC)

Good idea to create Category:Welsh Highland Railway. I think it would be more appropriate that Category:Heritage railway stations in Gwynedd. Yes there is an overlap due to the roles each played in their development. This would also allow issues like the Blaen Quarries to be tagged to the FR, whilst lines like the Nantlle Tramway could possible be tagged to the Welsh Highland Railway, along with Creosor, etc. An interesting selection would be where the line to the Prince of Wales Quarry above Penmorfa would go. -- Pencefn 12:33, 1 September 2006 (UTC)

Yes, I totally agree, though we should beware of the subtelties. Croesor is an interesting case since at least the Rhosydd quarry did indeed ship slates out via the Ffestiniog in its early days [1] so an article on the quarry ought to be in both categories! The history of the two companies is inextricably linked right back to the earliest days. Gwernol 12:39, 1 September 2006 (UTC)

Hello, I do appreciate and understand these various views. However, the fact is that the WHR, its track and stock and all its stations are owned by the Ffestiniog Railway Company and are managed by the FR. No train moves on the operational Welsh Highland Railway without explicit permission from the duty train controller at Porthmadog Harbour station who also controls all train movements on the FR. Many of the train operating volunteers working on the Ffestiniog Railway also work on the Welsh Highland Railway (having correctly learnt both routes) and in many cases allow the management to decide, on a day to day basis, which railway they will work on. At the time the WHR was formed in 1921, it and its constituent companies together with the FR were under a common majority ownership and that continued until after the WHR was closed in 1937. When the original WHR was opened in 1923, the first through trains from each end were hauled by FR locomotives.

The two railways have always been linked by ownership and management. There is a precedent for linking the two together symbolically. It is the existing coat of arms comprising a red dragon on a green and white ground with by a garter bearing the wording "Ffestiniog & Welsh Highland." and surmounted by the Prince of Wales feathers. I propose a single category: Ffestiniog and Welsh Highland. Regards NoelWalley 13:03, 1 September 2006 (UTC)

Here's why I like the idea of two categories, for historical and organizational reasons.

While its true that the FfR and WHR are closely tied, its also true that the WHR was once a separate entity and even today the WHR(P) continues to exist as a separate but co-operating group to the FfR. Wikipedia needs to cover history as well as the present. The WHR category would be a good umbrella to cover earlier railway activities like the NWNGR, PB&SSR, Croesor Tramway and even the Gorseddau Tramway(s). These smaller operations probably don't need their own categories and wouldn't fit within the scope of the FfR but do make sense to under the WHR. Categories do not need to be strictly separate, so articles can exist within multiple categories. As I mentioned, Porthmadog would be under both categories, as would both railway articles. Best, Gwernol 13:45, 1 September 2006 (UTC)

I must now declare an interest. I am one of those volunteers that works on both lines (I am a Guard and a Controller). I can however indicate a preference, and the FR Management has stated that no-one will be forced to work on one line or the other when they do not want to. There is then the case of ensuring that those who volunteer at Gelert's Farm do not feel alienated. In fact once the Trawth Mawr extension of WHR(P) is open, the FR controller will have to allow access onto the line at the beginning of the day. There are however a sizeable minority on both lines who have no interest in the other and feel that the distinct identities should be retained.

Enough of the politics, given that the FR was built primarily as a slate railway, and the WHR as a tourist/general freight line (the only sizable slate traffic appears to have been from Glan-y-afon and Creosor) I believe that two separate categories are appropriate to recoginse the two different heritages - yes I know the FR Heritage Group is very incestious in the this respect(I contribute to that).

Rhosydd is an interesting case - I was walking up there last Monday whilst seeking out the link between Cwmorthim and Creosor (of which more another time).

Indeed, the Croesor Tramway was used to get slate out of Rhosydd as well as Croesor, two of the larger mines in the industry after the 'central' Blaenau ones. This used the largest single-pitch incline in the Welsh slate industry, at the head of Cwm Croesor. Somewhat off-topic, though... vanoord 17:55, 6 November 2006 (UTC)

In conclusion, I think two categories - one for Welsh Highland and the other for Ffestiniog - are in order, and the other category Category:Heritage railway stations in Gwynedd I created a few days ago should be removed.

-- Pencefn 14:14, 1 September 2006 (UTC)

My personal preference remains to have separate categories for the WHR and FfR because there are articles that should be in one and not the other. What are everyone else's thoughts? Can we reach consensus? Gwernol 16:55, 1 September 2006 (UTC)

Absent further discussion, I have gone ahead and created Category:Welsh Highland Railway and started tagging appropriate articles into that category. Thanks, Gwernol 20:25, 8 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Stations

These could do with rearanging into a more logical order, fitting in with the route of the railway, ie Norh to South
--82.68.6.202 23:03, 13 November 2006 (UTC)

Where are they not listed in this order? They are in that order in the article, unless I've missed something. There are quite a few articles, so I probably haven't spotted the place you mean. Thanks, Gwernol 00:28, 14 November 2006 (UTC)

I think the query is refering to Welsh_Highland_Railway#Stations. Traeth Mawr is not listed, and when them stations from WHR(P) and WHR(C) are combined they do not following in order. == Stewart 00:32, 14 November 2006 (UTC)

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