Talk:Walther PPK

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Contents 1 Who copied whom? 2 Hitler's suicide: P38 or PPK? 3 "Kriminal" vs "kurz" 4 Let's rephrase the James Bond blurb so that it doesn't invite constant tinkering

[edit] Who copied whom?

Did this wikipedia entry plagiarize, nearly verbatim, the material that can be found here: http://world.guns.ru/handguns/hg13-e.htm

or did that page plagiarize Wikipedia?

[edit] Hitler's suicide: P38 or PPK?

The Walther P38 article states that Hitler used a P38 to commit suicide, whereas this article claims he used a PPK. We should probably find a source to back up either claim, and stick with it. - Ben of Oz

History channel just claimed the PPK. Hitler apperently had 2 PPKs by his side at all times, one a smaller calliber and the other which he killed himself with. Name of the documentary is as follows. Tales of the Gun German Small Arms of WW II ~--Alt 15:59, 16 February 2006 (UTC)

Yes, they were highly embellished guns. He had a .25 caliber (6.35 mm) and the other a 32 caliber (7.65) model. Speaking of the suicide gun, this is fairly common knowledge, however the Soviet Union was known for distorting history and any historical fact that comes from them must be taken with a grain of salt.--Asams10 19:38, 16 February 2006 (UTC)

"the Soviet Union was known for distorting history and any historical fact that comes from them must be taken with a grain of salt"... while you can trust the United States and United Kingdom as the Holy Bible, especially when it comes to weapons virtually owned by Irak. Voice of God is government. Alfred Dreyfuss 16:12, 20 October 2006 (UTC)

No government can be trusted blindly, and your point is taken. However, Asams10's point is still entirely valid. The Soviet government was extremely veracity-challenged. I don't think he was trying to say "in comparison to the U.S. and U.K. governments, which have never ever lied and are God-like." The straw man you're knocking down was inserted by you. Lumbercutter 02:24, 21 November 2006 (UTC)

Well put, but I think it was a troll, so I didn't respond when he first posted. The US government has always had quite the propoganda mill, but it paled incomparrison to that of either the Soviet Union or Nazi Germany. I'll add, however, that the Germans kept meticulous and, dare I say, quite accurate records on nearly everything. I've not done any primary research myself, but I believe that all sources I've read have coraborated the PPK story. Of course, we all know that Hitler is still alive in Argentina!--Asams10 21:52, 22 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] "Kriminal" vs "kurz"

I've heard PPK to mean Polizeipistole Kurz (World Guns says Kurz), which would make more sense to me. Reference on Kriminalmodell? [unsigned]

Yes a reference would be good, otherwise put Kurz back into the post as another potential abbreviation for PPK. [unsigned]

Doesn't "Polizeipistole Kriminalmodell" really mean "police pistole, criminal model"? It would be rather strange to imply that the police, or the pistols they wield, are criminals. Shouldn't that be more like "Kriminalpolizeimodell"? JIP | Talk 11:58, 20 November 2006 (UTC)

Not sure where you got that, but it stands for kurz or short in English (roughly). Some modern sources report it as Kriminal which translates as Detective though, again, roughly. --Asams10 14:14, 20 November 2006 (UTC)

According to Oxford-Duden German-English Dictionary, 2nd ed [a desktop Oxford-Duden, not a pocket model], Kriminale as a nominalized adjective translates as "detective", as does the noun der Kriminaler (-s,-). Looking further into it, I find explained in Josserand, M.H., Stevenson, J.A. (1972). Pistols, Revolvers, and Ammunition. New York: Bonanza Books (A division of Crown Publishers, Inc.), pp. 238-239. ISBN 0517165163. that "The PPK was intended as a concealment gun for detectives, hence its name, Polizei-Pistole Kriminal, for in Germany the Detective Division, or Kriminalamt, takes its name from the hunted rather than the hunter." So that corroborates the "Kriminal" spell-out. However, the "kurz" spell-out is believable because the gun is shorter in overall height and length and better for concealment. I would bet that the "kurz" spell-out began as folk etymology because of its logically reasonable ring. Lumbercutter 01:54, 21 November 2006 (UTC)

I'll be damned. Looks like my near-to-fluent English was influencing my merely very good German. I thought "kriminal" in German meant the same thing as "criminal" in English. But on second thought, I don't think the "krim-" based words are so native to German. If I were to translate "a crime" to German, it would be "ein Verbrechen", not "ein Krime". I'll have to ask a native German speaker one day. JIP | Talk 19:59, 22 November 2006 (UTC)

Why not say that both are used. I have seen Kriminal in one book of firearms, and Kurz in another. Since both are used it would make sense to reference both in the article. LWF 21:02, 22 November 2006 (UTC)

Done. It is now phrased in a neutral way that acknowledges both theories: "Its German acronymous name stands for either Polizeipistole Kurz ('Police Pistol Short') or Polizeipistole Kriminalmodell ('Police Pistol Detective Model'), depending on which reference source is consulted." Lumbercutter 00:06, 23 November 2006 (UTC)

Asams10, perhaps the dispute between Kriminal and Kriminalmodell can be resolved the same way as Kurz and Kriminal. I've seen all three before, and Walther's website doesn't provide any illumination on which is correct. So we might as well have all three mentioned. If no one disagrees I'll go ahead and put that in the article.--LWF 00:26, 23 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Let's rephrase the James Bond blurb so that it doesn't invite constant tinkering

I propose the following minor rephrasing. It doesn't beg every passer-by to add in the latest 2 cents: "The PPK is the trademark weapon of fictional secret agent James Bond in books and films. The weapon is prominently featured in opening sequences as well as movie art. The pistol itself enjoys popularity as a result. Bond has also used the Walther P99." Comments? Lumbercutter 04:31, 26 November 2006 (UTC)

Take out the last sentence and you'll be fine. No matter what, some kid is gonna pop in and say something approaching the following: "In the movie Dumb and Dumber they used a Walter peepeekay to shoot harry, or floyd... not sure, but anyway then he had, like, a bullet proof vest on that the FBI lady who was hitting on them gave him before he went in the room and the gun jammed because the slide was open in one scene but in the next it was closed and he shot but it was really cool and looked gold." Invariably, right before somebody can revert, some other kid will pop in and say that the PPK did not make a return in Dumb and Dumberer because the original actors did not make a return. In fact, it was a reboot of the whold Dumb and Dumber franchise therefore they must have given the bad guy in the first movie back his gun.

But I digress, I'd take the last sentence out of your rewrite and leave it be.--Asams10 14:03, 26 November 2006 (UTC)

Ha! LOL! You are spot-on with that! I see exactly what you mean. Let's try leaving off the last sentence, as you suggest. But you may be right about the inevitability of it being continually "improved". Lumbercutter 17:30, 26 November 2006 (UTC)

It's so sick, it's almost funny. It took all of 17 minutes for somebody to add to it. Yeah, you know I saw the new James Bond film too.--Asams10 20:20, 26 November 2006 (UTC)