Talk:University of Tartu

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Good job, Clossius! Andres 11:01, 14 Mar 2004 (UTC)

Contents 1 Name 2 Students and Professors 3 Gustaviana 4 Names again 5 Clarification and Deletion

[edit] Name

In 1893, the Russian (official) name of Tartu was changed from Derpt to Yuryev. The name of the university became Yuryevskii Imperatorskii Universitet.

To me, the names of the University in the article are not clear enough, as you cite just the names of the city. Andres 11:15, 14 Mar 2004 (UTC)

The University of Tartu is indeed called "national university" (rahvusülikool). But I suspect that formulated like that, the meaning is not clear enough. Probably this should be explained. Andres 11:27, 14 Mar 2004 (UTC)

I forgot to say that there is a concept of "the" national university, which is separate from the self-styled (and highly problematic) designation of Tartu as 'rahvusülikool, which also has some other implications and is perhaps something of an oxymoron, if not literally in Estonian. And I think TÜ is that, at least still for now.

I don't object but I think this needs explanation. For example, I don't know what this means. Does this imply that the University of Tartu is the only University in Estonia?

No I don't, but it clearly is the only full and all-encompassing university, because the Tallinn rectors and presidents in 1993 were all too vain to give up their fiefdoms and create a real University of Tallinn, more's the pity. TTU is a very serious research university in many if not most of their fields, only these are limited. I agree "national university" is a vague term, but it has to stay vague to be serviceable; if you'd insist on more explanation, I would replace it with some phrase like "the only classical university in EE" or some such.Clossius 06:39, 15 Mar 2004 (UTC)

Maybe you could just add "the only classical university in EE" to "national university". The University of Tallinn is coming, but without TTU. I think more explanations could be in the body of the article. Andres 08:37, 15 Mar 2004 (UTC)

You may add that if you want; I myself don't think it's necessary, so why should I do it, but you can. Tallinn U is not coming at all, except in name; TTU is i.m.h.o. the only serious university structure in Tallinn (excepting some specialized schools on the university level). Clossius 09:06, 15 Mar 2004 (UTC)

OK, I added it though I don't know if this is the best solution. Andres 10:55, 15 Mar 2004 (UTC)

[edit] Students and Professors

• 1. On students and faculty, it's common to list those who are both only as faculty, which is why I deleted Marjustin from the student list and moved Kallas up (formal professor- and dotsentships). As regards Keres (and other cases that may come up), I think the biography article should then be updated as well and Tartu included.

OK, you are right. I was not aware that Kallas taught here, and did not notice him. I'll expand the article about Keres.

[edit] Gustaviana

• 2. I would stay with "Academia Gustaviana"; this is really how it was called, and the Charles addition only obscures (cf. Piirimäe & Co.)

The names were different, because Academia Gustaviana closed in Tartu in 1656 (and then worked in Tallinn until 1665). In 1690 it reopened as Academia Gustavo-Carolina (or Academia Gustaviana Carolina; I am at loss, I don't know which is right; after Carl XI). This is as much I know. I think

it would be better to cite the old names of the University inside the text, bold.

But in 1690 it was already in Pärnu, no? I thought thus that it might get too tricky. But ok.

No, it was in Tartu until 1699, then it went to Pärnu. I'll expand on this in the article.

If you get too detailed, you should write a separate entry on "pre-history" or "early history", which is why I kept this segment as succinct as possible. In the end, the Academy history is partially "constructed" (one might as well have taken the Jesuit grammar school); the serious history starts at 1802. That doesn't mean one shouldn't (eventually) be detailed about the Gustaviana, but not where people start to read about Tartu.Clossius 06:39, 15 Mar 2004 (UTC)

Yes, a separate entry about Academia Gustaviana could be created. On the other side, it would be more natural to start the article from the University of today, and give its history as a separate section. Then that prehistory would be a subsection. In the beginning it could only ne mentioned 1632 and 1802. Andres 08:37, 15 Mar 2004 (UTC)

I agree; after the first quick intro. (including the historical names to show those led here by reference that this is indeed Dorpat, etc.), there should come a brief characterization of today's TU, and then the history - and in such a case, of course, we could also leave and even expand the Academy times.Clossius 09:06, 15 Mar 2004 (UTC)

Yes.

[edit] Names again

• 3. I would always transliterate Jurjev, both in German and in English; why did you change it to Yuryev? The point is, in almost all literature on the field, and especially on the imprints of books that are likely to be read (Mattiesen, Acta et Commentationes etc.), it is spelled Jurjev, and thus people would look for that. I would if anything put a referral page to Yuryev and Univ. of Yuryev.

Clossius 11:35, 14 Mar 2004 (UTC)

The problem is that the transliterations of Юрьевъ are different. In Estonian it would be Jurjev, in German Jurjew, in English Yuryev. There are other transliteration systems, and an international one used in humanities renders ю as 'ju'. However, both in the English Wikipedia and

Britannica they write "Yuri" (Yuri Gagarin, Yuri Lotman as you yourself write).

I noticed that *smile*.

In Britannica, Tartu is Yuryev. (By the way, Zhirinovski just said that Tartu will be Yuryev after he becomes the Presidents by the next elections.) In Britannica, the former name of Tartu is cited as "Yuryev". There appears to be a cleavage between the scientific use and the common use. It is possible to cite both forms but probably better in the article Tartu.

Ok.

Anyway, we should have redirection pages for both "University of Yuryev" and "University of Jurjev", since the title of the article is "University of Tartu". Then there will be no difficulty of finding, even when someone knows only the form Jurjev. Andres 13:23, 14 Mar 2004 (UTC)

Absolutely agree.

I made the redirection page for the form "University of Yuryev". Andres 20:01, 14 Mar 2004 (UTC)

[edit] Clarification and Deletion

I clarified "Baltic" to "Baltic German" (obviously it was not obvious, in spite of the context). There was a raving paragraph that I deleted in its entirety - in segments for the following reasons:

The university is also fairly well known among local scholars for its contradictive style in many respects, namely for calling itself the University of Tartu versus Tartu University, which is the name structure given to older universities. No one has ever heard of the University of Oxford.

Sheer nonsense - first, traditional universities named after places generally go by "University of X", and so the offical designation of Oxford is, as we can see here, University of Oxford and not "Oxford University". Second, and accordingly, Tartu Ülikool has always an exclusively called itself "University of Tartu"; "Tartu University" is occasionally used by outsiders or visitors who do not know the general nor the specific tradition.

This web page is another example, as it uses both American and British English.

Which website? This entry? This is very obviously not put up by TU.

While cheating is rampant throughout courses and exam sessions, the students still sport a highly arrogant face and the fraternities all wear Village People-style gay hats. One local fratboy dressed up as a woman once and now no one can speak to him for ninety-nine years.

Sheer malignance... somebody didn't get in, or what? Indeed, the Fraternity and Sorority system in Tartu can be criticized and questioned easily and fruitfully, but not this way in an encyclopedia entry.

Clossius 21:05, 10 Nov 2004 (UTC)