Talk:Universal Life Church

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[edit] External link removal

It appears that a link has been removed from the external links section of the article repeatedly for quite some time now, so could the user removing it please give some reasoning as to why he or she is doing this? Thank you. Cowman109^Talk 20:08, 22 November 2006 (UTC)

Why has it been removed and put back in so many time? This article is about the Universal Life Church founded by Kirby J. Hensley which is located and Headquartered in Modesto, California. The link that has been removed/added repeatedly is of a individual church that is no longer affiliated with the ULC.

They are now a complete separate church similar to Universal Ministries. Up until August 1, 2006 the site in question ULC.org and/or TheMonastery.org submitted all ordination request to the Headquarters in Modesto who did the actual ordaining and record keeping. After the 1st of August, the Headquarters revoked ULC.org and/or TheMonastery.org affiliation and stopped accepting ordination requests from that group and stopped them from issuing ULC Headquarter products and Degrees. Since that time, ULC.org and/or TheMonastery.org has re organized under their own authority and started to ordain and keep their own records as a separate church.

As a church that is not associated with the Group being talked about, it makes little sense for them to be still connected in this article since they no longer are part of this group. As mentioned in the archive of the talk page, this is akin to listing any church founded after the Protestant Reformation in the article for the Roman Catholic Church since they were at one point part of it.

131.10.254.61 15:10, 1 December 2006 (UTC)

The above is quite interesting, and it would be great to include it (a bit briefer, just the facts, though) in the article. Is there a reliable source, per WP:RS? John Broughton | Talk 17:06, 1 December 2006 (UTC)

http://www.azstarnet.com/allheadlines/158700%20 Article from the AZ Daily Star or contact the ULCHQ in Modesto. 131.10.254.61 13:30, 4 December 2006 (UTC)

The above article is about the Universal Life Church Monastery and makes no references to there being a "Head quarters" for the Universal Life Church. Anybody is free to run a church, there are over 100 Universal Life Church's in the country and only but a few have anything to do with Modesto. Also, I might add that ULCHQ is a corporation and not a non for profit corporation as per the IRS.

Link removed. It is about the ULC Monastery. The article is about our church and not the ULCHQ, and does not make any references in the article about a head quarters. It is only you're opinion that ULCHQ is the "head quarters" an opinion is not fact.

A little fuel for thought, if ULCHQ is the "Head Quarters" for the Universal Life Church than why is it that they are a Corporation ? How can a Corporation be the Head Quarters for a Church ?

Brdennis 06:34, 5 December 2006 (UTC)

Link re-added as it deals directly with the questioned asked by a Wikipedia Admin. As to your question of can a Corp be a Headquarters, yes it can. Infact it is a pretty common pratice. 131.10.254.61 13:44, 5 December 2006 (UTC)

Just to be clear, so it is less likely to happen again - editors are to leave the postings of other editors, on talk pages, AS IS, per Wikipedia:Talk page and Wikipedia:Talk page guidelines. I was going to put the link back myself, but 131 beat me to it. (And to clear up any misunderstanding, I'm not an Admin, just an interested user.)

Also, please use indentation (as I've done) to make it clearer who has posted what. (After five or six indentations, the norm is to post flush against the left margin, starting again.) John Broughton | Talk 13:57, 5 December 2006 (UTC)

I was referring to the orginal question by Cowman109 who is a WikiAdmin. 131.10.254.61 14:01, 5 December 2006 (UTC)

The link has NOTHING to do with the church in Modesto, only but once does it mention Modesto. And it does not mention it as a "head quarters". It is only you're opinion that ULCHQ is the "head quarters". An opinion is not fact. Brdennis 08:28, 6 December 2006 (UTC)

It is by far not an opinion, but a justified fact. The Church in Mosesto has been the International Headquaters for the ULC since Rev Hensley founded the church. Additionally your own site (ulc.org) up until 1 Aug 06 submitted thier ordinations to the ULCHQ in Modesto and on the site referred to it as the Headquarters. It has only been since the change in "leadership" of the ULC Monastery, which as the article above mentions is questionable in the eyes of the state of AZ, that the Monastery itself as said that the ULCHQ is not the actual HQ. 131.10.254.61 19:14, 6 December 2006 (UTC)

The link for the ULC Seminary was removed because it was said that it was not an 'authorized' site, yet you keep the ulc.org site and not only is it not authorized, it's also not even affiliated. That's inconsistent. If and when Arizona regains control of the site and is then re-affiliated with Headquarters, then it would be appropriate to add them, but otherwise, it's not. 04:21, 7 December 2006 —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Ulcseminary (talk • contribs).

Note: I have placed a comment on the user's talk page about the need to comply with WP:COI

The fact is that the IRS denied the church's tax exempt status in 1969 and again in 1970 on the grounds that the Hensley family was engaging in activities outside the religious activities contemplated by IRS’s 501(c)(3) http://laws.findlaw.com/9th/9615122o.htm .They were buying and investing in real state in violation of federal law. The IRS’s revocation action was based on the fact that the net earnings of the Modesto “Church” were privately benefiting the Hensley family who now run the private corporate enterprise (Universal Life Church Inc. & its website). The federal government held that the activities of the church and affiliated organizations were conducted to privately benefit Modesto church insiders. Further, that the Modesto church engaged in advising its members on how to tax evade taxes. At the time the Hensley’s were involved in the operation of a residential construction business also. As a result they owed $6 million in back taxes. It is not common for a church to be a business corporation as the ULCHQ is now. The IRS doesn't seem to think it is neither. This is why they IRS removed Modesto's status as a non-profit corporation. Modesto is a business, they are not a church. Brdennis 08:49, 7 December 2006 (UTC)

The ULC Monastery is not a IRS recoginized Non-profit Corp either per the IRS's Non-profit website. Infact this wikipedia article includes a court case about the ULCHQ lossing it's 501c3 status under the legal section. And your still far off the mark in regards to being a corp. having anything to do with being a Headquarters, it standard for the Headquarters to be incorporated. An example is the Arizona Southern Baptist Convention Inc. (Baptist tend towards the use of convention instead of Headquarters but organizationally they are interchangable terms). The ASBC happens to be 501c3 and holds a group exemption for all of it's sub churches. 131.10.254.61 19:08, 7 December 2006 (UTC)

http://www.azstarnet.com/allheadlines/158614 More legal trouble for the ULC Monastery. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 131.10.254.61 (talk) 19:32, 7 December 2006 (UTC).

We are a non for profit corporation under the state of Washington. Modesto is a reguler for profit corporation under California. Plain and simple. We are non for profit, Modesto is a money making corporation. And I did not say it is unusual for a church to be a corporation. I said it is not common for a church to be a BUSINESS corporation. ASBC you said yourself is non for profit. Modesto is not even non for profit under California state. Modesto is a money making business corporation. Period.

Brdennis 23:02, 7 December 2006 (UTC)

That is amusing seeing that the ULC Monastery is operating two seperate Corps in Washington one Non-profit and one FOR-Profit, and oddly enough the copyright listed on the bottom of www.ulcmonastery.org and ulc.org is listed as the FOR-Profit Corp, not the Non-profit.

http://www.secstate.wa.gov/corps/search_results.aspx?search_type=simple&criteria=all&name_type=starts_with&name=Universal+Life&ubi=

California does not publically post the status of a corp on thier site, so you would have to back that statement up. Regardless of state non-profit status, neither the "Monastery' nor the Headquarters are registered as Non-Profits with the IRS.

Frankly it is more disturbing that the the current and most recent leaders of the Monastery, other then still fighting for control of the Corp. and Domain names, have both been in legal hot water. Daniel Zimmerman served 2 years in Federal prison for "conspiracy to hinder and hamper the IRS" and George Freeman was implacated in the Teen Dance Ordinance (also see http://archives.thedaily.washington.edu/1996/100396/club100396.html). 131.10.254.61 15:55, 8 December 2006 (UTC)

What is amusing is that you provided verifiably false information in you're previous post. If you notice that both the corporations that we have registered 'ULC Monastery' and 'Universal Life Church Monastery Storehouse' are both listed as NONPROFIT. You even provided a link to this information, which you claim says are FOR profit ? If you had read the own link you provided, you would cleary see that it says NONPROFIT.

Please see the further links for proof.

http://www.secstate.wa.gov/corps/search_detail.aspx?name=UNIVERSAL+LIFE+CHURCH+MONASTERY+STOREHOUSE&ubi=602649207

http://www.secstate.wa.gov/corps/search_detail.aspx?name=UNIVERSAL+LIFE+CHURCH%2fULC+MONASTERY%2c+INC.DBA+UNIVERSAL+LIFEC+HURCH%2fULC+MONASTERY&ubi=602500589

Also, you claimed that there was a copyright listed on the bottom of ulcmonastery.org ? That is interesting considering we do not even use that domain. Please stop citing verifiably false information. The other comments regarding Daniel Zimmerman and George Freeman are both completely irrelevant, Daniel Zimmerman is no longer apart of the ULC Monastery and the article you linked too was written in 1996 and refers to a completely irrelevant topic. Again, please stop trying to slander us and make personal attacks. Seeing as how you're account has now been suspended, and trying to get my account blocked from editing. It is quite clear to everybody that you're only purpose is to spread lies, and make personal attacks.

Please see the following link http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:131.10.254.61

Brdennis 04:09, 9 December 2006 (UTC)