Talk:Philmont Scout Ranch

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Scouting Wiki Project Philmont Scout Ranch is part of the Scouting WikiProject, an effort to build a comprehensive and detailed guide to Scouting on the Wikipedia. This includes but is not limited to boy and girl organizations, WAGGGS and WOSM organizations as well as those not so affiliated, country and region-specific topics, and anything else related to Scouting. If you would like to participate, you can edit the article attached to this page, or visit the project page, where you can join the project and/or contribute to the discussion.
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This article was the project's collaboration of the month (April 2006).
This article was the project's article of the month (July 2006) on the Scouting Portal.
This article is part of WikiProject Philmont Scout Ranch, an attempt to better organize information in articles related to the Philmont Scout Ranch If you would like to participate, you can edit the article attached to this page, or visit the project page, where you can join the project and/or contribute to the discussion.


This is the talk page for discussing improvements to the Philmont Scout Ranch article.
To-do list for Philmont Scout Ranch: edit · history · watch · refresh
  • Update per WP:MOS, including:
  • Ensure all measurements are listed in English system followed by metric system equivalents in parantheses.
  • Delink solitary year and months per Manual of Style guideline to link only when have strong connection to article - always link full dates to enable user date preference.

Contents

[edit] Training Center

Should there be a separate page for Philmont Training Center?? --Emb021 1 July 2005 19:27 (UTC)

Probably not. In this case, it's certainly not worth starting a new page until you've started writing and realized that it's getting to be separate from the rest of the article. --Smack (talk) 3 July 2005 00:33 (UTC)
Well, looks like someone has gone and created a PTC page. --Emb021 21:32, 31 January 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Individual Camps

I'd like to make a suggestion: The article is formatted in a way that allows every individual campsite to have it's own article. I don't think that's a very good idea because that would make those articles vulnerable to deletion because of non-notability. If an editor wants to go into detail about a particular campsite, I suggest that he/she create a subpage from the Philmont article instead. So if an editor wants to make an article about Aguila, the page address should be [[Philmont Scout Ranch/Aguila]] not [[Aguila Camp]]. If no one likes the subpage idea, I think we should at least create a Philmont category so the articles are tied together in some form.

BTW, I was a Ranger in 2001 and I had a blast working there. It's a great place to be. Solarusdude 22:11, 30 September 2005 (UTC)

I, on the other hand, think the camps are very notable and worthy of inclusion because of the huge volume of people which pass through each one every summer, and the tendency for camps to develop as communities and cultures of their own. Incidentally, articles in subpages have long been deprecated, but the category idea is a good one. — Dan | Talk 22:15, 30 September 2005 (UTC)
I heartily disagree that the individual campsites are notable at all. I think that whatever bit of encyclopedic information can be squeezed out of the articles should be put here, and that the campsites should be de-linked. I've camped and backpacked in many places, and have seen a lot of great sites with (and without) a culture of their own. However, though they were meaningful to me, they do not deserve an article here. --Blackcap | talk 06:37, 2 October 2005 (UTC)

How 'bout merging them until they get too big, then spliting them out? BTW, I'm the guy who's deleted a lot of the empty lists of camp leaders, and listed the ones with text on AfD. Thanks very much to Solarusdude for figuring out what was going on. JesseW, the juggling janitor 23:39, 1 October 2005 (UTC)

  • Now that we have List of camps in Philmont Scout Ranch, I am taking out all of the redlinked camps. This article is simply too long, and it is about to grow since it is going to be featured on the portal. Johntex\talk 02:00, 21 March 2006 (UTC)
I have a feeling that the remaining camps that still have their own pages should be deleted after the most get the most useful and notable information is taken from them and put into the "lost of camps..." page. Radagast83 06:06, 4 April 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Arrowhead Patch

Some info about the history of the arrowhead patch and info might be a nice addition. Dustimagic 03:45, 20 December 2005 (UTC)

I'm not aware of their history, but I would be interested in learning about their copyright status. If they're usable on Wikipedia, I could scan my three arrowheads - one generic, one from a Mountain Trek, and one from Rayado. — Dan | talk 03:50, 20 December 2005 (UTC)
I'm not entirely sure about their copyright status, however, they are often put under the "logo" copyright tag in other BSA articles. That would be great if you could upload them. The Rayado page could use a better patch. Dustimagic
Also, if it is allowed, I have the Year 2000 Arrowhead patch, which is the same as the regular generic arrowhead patch, except for red stitching and the year 2000 on it. That could be an interesting thing to add as well.Radagast83 19:48, 5 January 2006 (UTC)
It's allowed. That would be awesome! Dustimagic 22:46, 7 January 2006 (UTC)

I recommend that Scout logos be tagged with {{scoutlogo}}. Photos and other image should be tagged as appropriate. Also add a category such as Scouting or Boy Scouts of America. --Gadget850 ( Ed) 12:59, 3 April 2006 (UTC)

[edit] staff shirts

Anyway to incorporate the distinctive green staff "pickle shirts" and the 1970s black-and-yellow rugby jersey bumblebee staff shirts? Chris 05:46, 21 January 2006 (UTC)

IMHO, the shirts in and of themselves aren't notable. A nice photo with Scouts in action wearing the shirts would be in order. --Gadget850 ( Ed) 12:57, 3 April 2006 (UTC)


[edit] Awards

I recommend that we do not list out the full requirements for every award. A thumbnail sketch with a reference to the full list would work better. --Gadget850 ( Ed) 11:04, 4 April 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Staffed/Trail camp definitions

I would like to propose this, so that there is less of a chance the change will be reverted again, but frankly as I look at the trail camp sub-section of the camp section, I got more and more of a feeling that it did not belong there. The reasoning is that as far as I remember (discounting the Valle, which brings up a point that it should be headlined in the page as well, probably better than having it's own page):

  • Every camp in both instances has a wooden sign to indicate the campsite number.
  • Every site in both instances has a metal fire ring.
  • A sump can be found at both. So can a bear cable, and a latrine.

Frankly since they almost all apply (if there are exceptions, then they should be noted), it should be reasoned that it does not belong excusively under the "trail" sub-section, and should be moved to the Camp section, right above both the trail and staffed sections. Radagast83 05:21, 11 April 2006 (UTC)

It has been a few days since I proposed this. As I realize this isn't a highly trafficed area, I will be bold WP:BOLD and change it when I get on next if there are no objections. Feel free to discuss this if it's a bad idea and it can be reverted/changed back. Radagast83 07:20, 15 April 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Baldy Picture

I have a baldy picture that i took from the top of phillips that I like a lot better. before i just go and replace it, i want some agreement, though. a smaller version of the original pic can be found here. if a consesnus is reached, tell me on my talk page so i can put the full-size one. --preschooler@heart my talk - contribs 08:07, 27 April 2006 (UTC)

We can't tell if we can't see it. Upload it and let us take a look at it, with a notice here. Rlevse 10:05, 27 April 2006 (UTC)
mount baldy from mt. phillips
Enlarge
mount baldy from mt. phillips

Ok, i uploaded as requested. here is the image. --preschooler@heart my talk - contribs 08:55, 4 May 2006 (UTC)

I'm split on this, your photo has Baldy furhter away and the peak is less prominent, but your photo composition is better IMHO. Rlevse 09:52, 4 May 2006 (UTC)
  • Haha.. anyone happen to be going to philmont this summer? we could really use some great shots. --preschooler@heart my talk - contribs 21:09, 4 May 2006 (UTC)
I'm going to Philmont this summer as a staffer - actually, as a photographer. I can probably take whatever shots you guys think this page needs. Chrissers 20:52, 22 May 2006 (UTC)
I threw up some pics I took last year at Philmont. --Liamdunaway 17:06, 3 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Ranger Section

I updated the Ranger section with a small background on how there was no Ranger Department when Jack Rhea (my grandfather) became Director of Camping. - Brandon Rhea

[edit] Grace

I agree that the grace should be removed (there are too many songs and the like in the camp articles). There should be some mention though, with a link to Wilderness Grace (I stumbled on this article a week ago while cleaning back links). I'm not quite sure where to add this- anyone have a idea? --Gadget850 ( Ed) 12:53, 13 June 2006 (UTC)

I didn't know that was there, or I would have linked to it. Instead, thank Rlevse for doing it. Scoutersig 13:33, 13 June 2006 (UTC)
I missed it as well. :-) --Gadget850 ( Ed) 13:35, 13 June 2006 (UTC)
It was in the "Other" and "See also" sections. It clearly didn't belong in "Other" as those are external links, so I removed that one and left it in "See also". Rlevse 13:38, 13 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Improvements/Attention tag

  • Rework bulleted lists into prose.
  • Remove cruft, esp in the trek, base camp and trail camp sections. Details of tarps and latrines really aren't really notable for this article.
  • There are no references.
  • Too many external links. Work these in as cited references if possible.
  • Clean up redlinks and redirects.

--Gadget850 ( Ed) 19:37, 12 July 2006 (UTC)

  • Lead doesn't summarize the article either Rlevse 18:47, 31 August 2006 (UTC)
I've begun some work on the article, but something must be done about the list of campsites. For a while I thought that each page should get their own article, but after working on the Philwiki project, it would be nearly impossible to get people devoted to writing a good, clear, and concise article for each camp. It is hard enough to get one good sentence from each camp, especailly for anyone who hasn't been there the current (or just previous) season, as camps change frequently. I think we should have to come up wit ha decision whether to keep or remove the few that actually have articles (in which case I say remove). They may be notable, but if no one is going to write any we may as well be consistent and link to one single page that lists the camps (if even, but I discorage this). Radagast83 01:39, 25 August 2006 (UTC)
How an article called Philmont Scout Ranch subcamps, with a full list and section on each one someone has written about? Notice the camp link for Ponderosa Park links to a place in Colorado. Rlevse 01:43, 25 August 2006 (UTC)
Just noticed that it appears there is already a page that has been begun similar to this: List of camps in Philmont Scout Ranch. Could this be the basis for the article (if it's so agreed on)? Radagast83 02:57, 25 August 2006 (UTC)
Yes, but I'd suggest renaming it to my suggestion as the list is already more than a list. All we'd have to do is a rename.Rlevse 09:50, 25 August 2006 (UTC)
I don't see any problem with a rename. Then we all could go from there. Radagast83 15:52, 25 August 2006 (UTC)
Okay, it's now Philmont Scout Ranch Camps. I thought Camps worked better than Subcamps because it's what Philmont calls them (Staffed and Trail) Camps. Hope I wasn't too bold for anyone Radagast83 21:48, 26 August 2006 (UTC)

support creation of inclusive article, as per Rlevse, and thanks to Radagast for calling it like it is. Chris 01:46, 25 August 2006 (UTC) support. Rlevse 09:50, 25 August 2006 (UTC)

It's fine with me, but "Camps" should be "camps" and it's now time to merge all the separate Philmont camp articles into the master articles.Rlevse 22:03, 26 August 2006 (UTC)
Drat, I knew it didn't look right when I did it. Fixed. Radagast83 01:35, 27 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Merge

Re the merger of Baldy Town:

Oppose: This should be merged with Philmont Scout Ranch camps. --Gadget850 ( Ed) 13:44, 21 September 2006 (UTC)

Oppose: agree with Gadget. Rlevse 13:45, 21 September 2006 (UTC)

Oppose: agree with Gadget Horus Kol 14:40, 21 September 2006 (UTC)

Oppose, agree that it should be merged with Philmont Scout Ranch camps. Radagast83 15:58, 21 September 2006 (UTC)

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