Talk:Dubbing (filmmaking)

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It occurs to me that cg-animated movies could be easily lip-synched to new dubs. In fact, all the original sounds could be perfectly matched. So internationalization would be seamless for movies like Shrek or The Incredibles! Is this already done? Cogent 21:35, 12 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Probably, I heard about that already in Toy Story 2, so, yes. They just re-animate the mouth's movements for every new dub made.

It is also mentioned on the Shrek 2 and I, Robot DVDs - although in Shrek 2, they said it would only be possible in the future and wasn't at that moment in time. --Andyroo316 18:49, 11 September 2006 (UTC)

Contents 1 Cost issue? 2 Same voice artists? 3 Afterthoughts 4 Eastern European Style 5 Loop 6 Film/TV? 7 Japanese dubs of certain American series 8 Finland 9 Brazil 10 Additional Dialogue Recording?? 11 Dubbing articles need some cleanup 12 anime claim

[edit] Cost issue?

Is it not a fact that dubbing is used mostly in larger countries (e.g. France, Italy), whereas in smaller countries, for reasons of cost, subtitles are the rule? --S.

• In the (relatively small) scandinavian countries it is definetely not a cost issue. If the audience had prefered dubbed TV and movies, they would have been dubbed. But allmost nothing is (only shows for small children who can't read are dubbed). People want to see everything with original sound and subtitles, wether it's in English, French, German, Chineese or whatever. A Norwegian TV-Channel made an experiment some years ago where they dubbed a new American comedy-series for about 10 episodes as their saturday prime time show. Then they ran it for a few episodes without dubbing and researched what the audience prefered. I believe there were about 90% who prefered the original version with subtitles. I guess it has alot to do with what you are used to. Me, a Norwegian used to subtitles, I absolutely detest dubbing and can't for the best of me understand why anyone would want it (except small children). I lived in Germany some years back, speak and understand German well, but going to the movies there or watching dubbed shows on TV was simply torture and anoyed me to no end. But my German friends couldn't understand why I was so fuzzed up about it, so I guess it's just a habit thing. Shanes 17:01, 9 Feb 2005 (UTC)

Shanes, it doesn't sound as if you are completely neutral on the issue. The original decision to subtitle movies in small countries (or rather, "small" languages) was certainly a cost issue. Subtitling is much, much cheaper. (Though my experience is mostly with Scandinavia, where I live.) However, the only foreign language with which Scandinavians are comfortable is English, I am not sure how happy Scandinavians are with subtitled French or German movies or television shows. I have been somewhat interested in that issue, and never saw anything close to a poll. Shanes is correct in saying that Scandinavians are quite happy with subtitled English movies. As the Dutch are with German productions, I presume. As a result of these decisions, American comedies do relatively poorly in Germany (because dubbed punchlines in Frasier don't work very well), and there are almost no foreign films other than English in Scandinavia.

The original decision many years ago to use subtitles (I don't know for sure) was most likely a cost issue. And this should probably be mentioned (with some references preferably) in the article. But the reason for not making dubbed versions of foreign movies in Scandinavia today is not a cost issue. If there were any audience preference for, say, seeing Der Untergang in any dubbed version (english or norwegian) there would have been a dubbed version offered for the public. At least in some theaters. But there isn't. The same goes for every french or chinese movies ever shown in Norway (I'll just speak for norway now, what scandinavian country are you from?). I don't remember the name of that great chinese movie some 2 years ago (something with dragons in the title), but at least in Norway it was shown with chinese sound and norwegian subtitles even though an English dubbed version was available (the version shown in the us). I strongly believe the reason theaters in Norway showed the version with original sound, is that the Norwegians are used to it. Reading isn't that hard when you get the hold of it. And then the added pleasure of seing a movie with original sound far outweighs the slight disadvantage of having to read to keep track of what's being said.

But you're right, I'm not neutral on this topic. I have my preferences, but I also believe very strongly that the my preference is shared with a vast majority of the Norwegian (scandinavian) public. And this is a talk page, where bias is allowed. And it is bias that we are discussing here. The bias in Norway (scandinavia) is wanting to see any movie in every language (made for people who can read, i.e. 8 years and older) with original sound. If the public bias was any different there would have been at least one movie shown with dubbed sound (in english at least). But I don't know of any. Do you? Shanes 02:14, 24 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Shanes, I think that is an accurate assessment. Dubbing (of adult pictures in the vernacular) is not popular in Scandinavia, and I don't think policy would be reverted even if it were economically feasible. However, originally, the reason was purely economic.

No, not purely economic. You don't end up doing it right (dubbing is wrong if you ask people brought up with subtitling) for purely another reason. Don't underestimate those making decissions about this back then. My bet is that many of them believed/knew then that the public really would prefere to hear the voice of John Wayne and Humphrey Bogart and not some Scandinavian voice actor. But the economic factor helped. It might even have been the most important reason, but I'd object to have the statement purely economic describe the reason.

On the other hand, be careful about extending your views to the entire Norwegian population. TV and movie cultures are formed by habit, and they select their own demographics. Ask old people about how they'd prefer a Western. Especially, old people who don't watch TV anymore for the very reason that they cannot read the subtitles fast enough. See how this is difficult?

Huh? I admit not having asked many old people, but I'd be surprised if anyone would start to prefer dubbing in their old days. My father is 73 and he actually has subtitling turned on even on Norwegian shows/movies since his hearing isn't all that great anymore. I don't think he'd even watch a western (western movies are his favourite) if Clint Eastwood had spoken Norwegian in it. It would make an aspect of the movie sound ridiculous. As it would for far, far the greatest majority of Scandinavians. I'm surprised you think otherwise. Are you really from Scandinavia, or have you just moved there?

The average consumer of the product has been selected based on how attractive the product was. Moreover, dubbing/subtexting defines TV habits. People in dubbing-countries like to do other things while watching TV. Many shirts are ironed while not watching (but listening to) afternoon soap operas. In Scandinavia, you need to sit in front of your TV and give it your undivided attention. Also, you cannot get data on how many people would prefer their French movies dubbed or subtitled for the reason that there is no audience for French movies in Scandinavia, and few Scandinavians have any long-time experience with watching dubbed productions in their own language. On the other hand few people in Scandinavia seem to have problems with Disney movies, for example, and most adults will be able to recite the Swedish (but not the English) names of the Seven Dwarves. So there is wide-spread acceptance for dubbing in Scandinavia when people are used to it, and wide-spread disdain when people aren't. That's not very surprising, and seems to be a poor basis for making general remarks. Certainly, your hypothetical experiment of offering a dubbed and a not-dubbed version of a movie and letting the masses decide won't do anything else than reinforce existing prejudices in the self-selected populations. What would be interesting is to see how Japanese movies fare that have been dubbed into English versus the Japanese original. As far as I know, Hong-kong action is shown (at least on Swedish TV) in the dubbed American version. I know very little about this phenomenon. Is there are Mandarin(?) original that one could show instead? Someone must know...

There are quite a few foreign TV-shows in German, French, Spanish etc running on Norwegian TV from time to time. And none of them are dubbed. I also don't agree on the "undivided attention" thing. You make it sound far more complicated than it is. I honestly have to say that it sounds like you haven't been brought up with subtitled TV/movies. I have asked quite a few of my friends the last days, and none of them are in any doubt over that subtitling is the right thing to do. "People watching a movie with original sound are experiencing the movie on a higher level", was the general opinion. And I agree. Even if it's POV, it is the POV of the vast majority of Scandinavians. I am certain of that. And even animated movies for children are shown in Norwegian theaters in 2 versions, one dubbed version for children who can't read, and one with subtitles for older children and adults who can read. Isn't that the case in Sweden, too?

At least with major producers, such as Disney and Dreamworks. I believe Spirited away was shown in both a Swedish and a Japanese version, as well.

Currently, Charlie and the Chocolate Factory is shown in Sweden in two versions, one Swedish and one English, it is one important reason that Roald Dahl, Tim Burton and Johnny Depp all has many adult fans in Sweden with a good knowledge of English.

I don't belive the "good knowledge of english" is that important. You didn't dub "Der Untergang" in Sweden, even if very few Swedes have a good knowledge of German. It's simply like this: Movies for adults are showed with subtitles because adults can read. Movies for children are dubbed (or shown in both versions) because children can't read that well. No foreign movies in scandinavia are dubbed if the audience are (predomanently) people who can read. Regardless of what language the actors speak. While movies for children are often dubbed, regardless of the language the actors or animated characters speak. It's not a english/not english thing. It's a can read/can't read thing. Shanes 23:04, 19 September 2005 (UTC)

True, that. What I meant was that, although this might be a children's movie, there still is a huge adult market for it. I heard that The SpongeBob SquarePants Movie, in spite of generally good reviews and a relatively large adult fanbase, wasn't shown subtitled in Swedish, probably because the producers didn't believe there was a huge enough market for it....

On Snow White and the Seven Dwarfs: The animated movie is based on the German fairy tale by the Brothers Grimm, and is much older than any Disney movie, and I believe the local names for the seven dwarfs are from the almost 200 year old translated books. Not 100% sure, though. Anyway, the names of the seven dwarfs would be translated in the subtitled version as well. Just as the names of the characters in LOTR was translated in the subtitling acording to the names used in the translated versions of the Tolkien books. People knowing all these names in Norwegian/Swedish doesn't have anything to do with dubbing or not. They are based on the books. Shanes 20:06, 26 Mar 2005 (UTC)

As someone made me aware of, the naming of the 7 dwarves was a Disney invention. So here the scandinavian names were a translation of the Disney names. 23:04, 19 September 2005 (UTC)

Finally, on esthetics. You can chose to either destroy the visual side of the picture (by putting text on the lower half) or the audio track (by dubbing). Which is better? I don't know -- since film is a visual medium, I think dubbing is better, but I'm not sure. Both are problematic (much like reading a book in translation), but short of learning the language in question there isn't much to do about it... When the language is one that I am comfortable in, I prefer the original (be it a book or a movie), but with Russian or Japanese I need a translation that will invariably just be an approximation of the original. Arbor 09:02, 24 Mar 2005 (UTC)

More generally, this article could do a better job in explaining how foreign-language productions are shown in different countries. In the larger European countries, they are always dubbed into the local language, as far as I know. (Can we confirm this? It's true for Germany, France, Italy, and Spain. Please add to this list.) In the small or poor European countries movies are either subtitled or have voice-over narration. (The latter is often used for children's programs in Scandinavia as well, presumably because dubbing is more expensive.) Conversely, as a rule, the US and UK don't show foreign language movies in the first place (excepting niches like highbrow films and hong-kong action, which are subtitled or dubbed, respectively), or redo the entire production. (For the German tv soap Schwarzwaldklinik, every scene was shot twice. First in German, and then immediately shot again by the same actors in English, after which their dialogue was dubbed by English-speaking actors to get rid of the German accents. Not that's an expensive way of dubbing!)

I am sure this last paragraph gives only part of the picture, and we need some international collaboration on this issue. However, the current article comes off as just a heavily biased and not very informative opinion piece about how English language productions are treated in some large European countries. (Note that with the advent of DVDs, original English soundtracks are trivial to come by. I have never seen a DVD that didn't include the original soundtrack.)

[edit] Same voice artists?

What I'd like to know is if the voice artists for, say, France, always do the voices of a certain actress/actor. For example, does Pierre Dupont (a theoretical Frenchman) always do the voices of Robert de Niro?

• I've been told that is the case in Germany. Don't know about France. --Pc13 17:42, 25 Nov 2004 (UTC)
  • It is definitely the case in Germany. The only problem is, if there is one movie with two different actors, which are normally dupped by the same person. Especially there is one guy, Thomas Danneberg, who give his voice to Arnold Schwarzenegger, Terence Hill, Sylvester Stallone, John Cleese, Dan Aykroyd, Nick Nolte, John Travolta, Michael York, Rutger Hauer and Dennis Quaid. (But most people dont know it...)
  • In Brazil we have dubbing too and this is not the case here. By the way I must add that I hate dubbing. It screws up with the show sounds and the dubbing is naturally of a worse quality thanm the original sound. Also there are a pretty small about of dubbers for a large amount of actors) PMLF 05:28, 31 Dec 2004 (UTC)
    • I heard that this is the case in Spanish, as well.

• Yes, the custom in France is for each foreign actor to always be voiced by the same French actor, to the extent possible. For example, Jim Carrey is almost always voiced by Emmanuel Curtil. In this interview, Curtil talks a lot about the dubbing industry in France. Among other things he says that one time they tried to replace Jean-Claude Michel as the voice of Clint Eastwood, and people walked out of the theatre seeking refunds; it felt like a betrayal because their actor's voice had been changed.--Mathew5000 11:15, 6 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Afterthoughts

When reading this article, one may get the impression that dubbing is very, very bad, as it destroys the original version. for example, this article states that in Germany there is "unfortunately" no possiblity to get an foreign movie in the original language. Actually, most people are comfortable in viewing a movie in a dubbed version, rather than learning a language from the scratch. For example, even with school english, it is hard to understand most of the English productions. therefore, kids for example are quite happy to see Spongebob Squarepants in German language. In the Netherlands, most cartoons are only subbed, leaving the spoken language english - and rendering kids below "advanced and fast reading age" unable to understand anything of the context just shown on the tv - therefore i must say, dubbing is very productive and useful to people who are not able to understand the foreign language (kids, older people), it shouldn't be in the interest of a society to lock out certain groups from understanding the meaning of a tv / movie production.

On the other side, this article "compliments" the North American / British way in only subbing foreign productions, rather then "destroying" them by dubbing. It should be stated here that most productions that are relased in the USA, for example, are actually productions from the USA thereselves, therefore there is no need for subbing / dubbing. So the "critique" on German dubbing is a little vague, compared to the closed tv market in the united states, that makes it hard for foreign productions to be shown there. many independent production companies can't efford dubbing foreign movies into the English language, as there is no big market that makes this possible.

It'd be nice, if someone could rearrange the critic in the article and maybe

thanks, --Abdull 14:08, 30 Jan 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Eastern European Style

I think the article should mention something about the style of dubbing, that is popular in for instance Russia and Poland, where the original track is kept, with just the volume lowered, and a native narrator is just translating the original lines on top of it, completely without even an attempt of feeling the mood or acting. (This technique has been used in Sweden as well, for Tom and Jerry cartoons on national television. Needless to say, this is some of the worst dubs I have ever heard. It completely destroys the mood of the original films.

OK, there was some mention about the Polish standard already... Hmmm, why bother reading an article... @_@

I live in Poland and it really is common, but only on TV, while most theatrical releases are subtitled. I cannot agree it is disastrous, maybe because I was growing with films translated this way. It is good, because you don't have to read the subtitles, and you still hear the original soundtrack. Anyway, I've found (and corrected) some errors in the article - in Poland, one narrator (usually male, but... I don't know a word for this... "Discovery Channel - style" shows are often dubbed by female narrator Krystyna Czubówna) is reading all the lines, not only on pirate copies, but on professional television, too. Maybe it is a rule in Russia, I'm not certain of this. --83.17.26.246 22:53, 2 January 2006 (UTC)

• "It completely destroys the mood of the original films." - are you kidding? You must have never heard badly dubbed films, such as German versions (no offence to the language itself!). The dubbing of films such as The Terminator, Batman and the like, have been ridiculed in many jokes ;). Can you imagine the Terminator speaking Hebrew, or Batman speaking Polish? Obviously, the "voice-over" technique is not the best thing, but it's a way better than bad dubbing. If you come from a country where dubbing is the prefered solution, you may not realize how annoying it sometimes may be. Also, the system is not limited to Poland or Russia; I have seen Polish documentaries broadcast on German TV use the same technique.
  
  I remember foreign films in Poland being dubbed in the early 80's, and there were always far from perfect (more a language than a technical matter); the last dubbed film on TV I remember being about 1986. Of course, some films at the some time ised the technique which I called "voice over", and other people caled "lektor".
  
  Advantages of the system include preserving the original audio, which makes it possible to hear the original tone of actors' voices etc., and also to understand the orginal, if you understand the language. Disadvantages include hearing the usual f.ck and the like in American movies, which are obviously NOT translated into the Polish version (otherwise 90% of American films would be shown after 23:00 or 11 P.M.)LMB 08:54, 14 May 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Loop

The following is from Loop, a disambiguation page:

• To "loop" is a term used in audio post production where an actor re-records his/her voice in a studio setting. This term is currently often replaced with the term "ADR" or Automated Dialogue Replacement. This is used when the original audio that was recorded on set was poor/damaged/lost etc. The term "loop" itself refers, as much of the film industry terminology does, to the old days where the actor was shown a continual film loop of the scene he/she was recording so that they would be able to synchronize their voice with the performance that was shot at an earlier date. Now, of course, looping or ADR is recorded using computer software.

Could someone incorporate this information into the article so that it can be deleted from the dab page? Thanks, Melchoir 02:23, 7 March 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Film/TV?

From where is the statement that dubbing of film is more common than dubbing of TV series? My impression is that countries generally dub nearly all or nearly nothing of the media they import, regardless of how it was first aired? 惑乱 分からん 17:07, 9 May 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Japanese dubs of certain American series

How or where can you find clips of the Japanese dubs of certain American shows, like Invader Zim and My Life as a Teenage Robot? --User:Angie Y.

[edit] Finland

There is no subtitling both in Finnish and in Swedish in Finnish TV. And as far I can remember, there has never been at least in thirty-five years. But in the movie theatres there are both subtitles, in foreign movies. --Lalli 17:22, 23 June 2006 (UTC)

Please be more specific and give some sort of evidence; it sounds like you're suggesting you remember every single movie and television program played in Finland in the last 35 years, which is clearly not your argument. -Unknownwarrior33 04:28, 13 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Brazil

The article is correct when it says that foreign TV programs are usually dubbed on Brazilian TV whereas foreign-language motion pictures are usually subtitled when shown in movie theaters. There are however a few exceptions. First, animated motion pictures like "Ice Age" or any typical Disney cartoon may be seen either in dubbed or subtitled versions in most movie theaters. That is also true BTW in the case of non-animated movies that are nonetheless aimed at a younger audience (Star Wars for example). I guess the point is that, in the first case, young children have only limited reading proficiency and struggle to follow subtitles, and, in the second case, teen audiences are (unfortunately) too lazy to read ! On the other hand, on paid-TV channels (available via cable or satellite), foreign-language drama or comedy series are usually subtitled (like in movie theaters), whereas in local, open-air broadcast networks, dubbing is preferred. Mbruno 20:01, 23 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Additional Dialogue Recording??

Everything I've ever heard says that ADR stands for "Additional Dialogue Recording," which certainly makes more sense than "Automated Dialogue Replacement." There's nothing particularly "automated" about it, now is there? The Google Fight between the two shows Additional Dialogue Recording as more prevalent, and to my eyes, the search results for Additional Dialogue Recording look more reliable than those for Automated Dialogue Replacement. SFT | Talk 07:11, 4 July 2006 (UTC)

I really don't think Google Fight is a relable source, nor are interpretations of search results. The main issue is that without checking all of them, it's impossible to know how many of the search results (a) are unique and (b) would be considered good sources in their own rights. -Unknownwarrior33 04:30, 13 August 2006 (UTC)

I am a sound editor in Los Angeles. It is and always has been Automated Dialogue Replacement. I am without a source, though, so at this time I am a bit wary of making a correction. I would expect "Additional Dialogue Recording" to win a googlefight, on account of the great generality of the term, whereas "Automated Dialogue Replacement" is quite specific, referring to the old process of "looping" being "automated" by the computerized LarTech ADR system (LarTech originated the term as a sales tactic). Again, I don't have the link, LarTech appears to have gone out of business. Iluvcapra 03:31, 23 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Dubbing articles need some cleanup

I am suggesting reworking our dubbing articles. Please see discussion at Talk:Dubbing. -- Infrogmation 18:01, 15 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] anime claim

I'm kind of taking issue with this statement:

Since most anime series contain some extent of profanity, the studios recording the English dubs often re-record certain lines if a series or movie is going to be broadcast on Cartoon Network, removing references to death and hell as well.

It's well known that a lot of anime does have profanity, and off the top of my head i would estimate even that the majority of anime shown on Cartoon Network does. But saying 'most anime series contain some extent of profanity' is a pretty steep claim to make. Not only is 'some extent of profanity' a little vague, but 'most anime series' literally encompasses hundreds or possibly thousands of series that have been produced since, what, the early 1950s? I don't see how anybody could make that claim scientifically. But i don't know, maybe somebody can cite a source. I added a 'verification needed' thing. ~ lav-chan @ 14:13, 19 October 2006 (UTC)