Talk:Dies Irae
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'Celaeno' is a star, one of the Pleiades. Celano is the town in the Abruzzi associated with this poet. If any element were dropped, it would be the 'a'. ...as in encyclopaedia. Wetman 08:18, 17 Nov 2003 (UTC)
- I've seen it both ways, but "Celaeno" seems to me to be the more frequently used, even if it is wrong. Perhaps it's because Celaeno is the spelling H. P. Lovecraft used. AAR, both are redirected to the same page. -- Smerdis of Tlön 14:34, 17 Nov 2003 (UTC)
[edit] J or I???
Was the poem written with j's or with i's? In good latin should be "i", right?
- See the article on J, which developed from I. Nowadays we are more classical in spelling. If a printed edition of Latin has Js it's a sign of age. Stroika 15:26, 17 June 2006 (UTC)
[edit] Head-Boarding Monks
It's worth noting that the last two lines of Dies Irae are being chanted by the line of monks in "Monty Python and the Quest for the Holy Grail" as they beat themselves in the heads with boards.
[edit] Cuncta stricte discussurus
I recently redid the translation, and I do have a question on cuncta stricte discussurus. The literal translation, to me, seems:
cuncta: nom/acc pl. n., everything/total/the sum/the whole
stricte: drawn tightly together
discussurus: future active participle. To shatter, strike down, destroy, etc.
Now, it could be that stricte has a 'strict' meaning I'm not familiar with (not that hard to imagine the link between 'bound tightly' and 'strict'), and discussurus could mean to be dealt with/finished/dismissed in a legal sense. Also, I just realized that discussurus is an active. My passive-ish translation might still best convey the sense, but I'd really like someone with more knowledge than I to investigate the usage of these terms.
- You are right about the root meaning of discutere, but in later Latin discutere often, and in some contexts usually, means "to render a judgment." It is for example the usual verb used to describe the action of a high court when it overturns the judgment of a lower court; thus the breaking-apart metaphor. FWIW, this is the source of the English word "discuss." Forensic jargon appears elsewhere in the poem --- cassus, for example, is not the ordinary word for "in vain" --- so it seems at least likely that when the Judge comes, he will be rendering final judgments rather than breaking things up. A lot depends on what the implied, unstated antecedent of cuncta is. Crimina? Peccata? Smerdis of Tlön 02:49, 17 Oct 2004 (UTC)
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- Thanks! That's actually quite helpful. The question now is how to translate this. Perhaps a footnote is in order? I admit I like the idea of everything brought together to be broken apart, which seems a fitting metaphor for Judgment Day's dual aspects of comprehensive collection and final destruction - a 'wrap up', as it were. That even seems to potentially fit with the more legal interpretation - everything brought together to be dismissed/overturned/finalized. How do we render this in English, however?
[edit] Poem itself should be moved...
...to the commons or wikibook --213.33.29.214 21:14, 14 Apr 2005 (UTC)
What's holding you back? --82.170.209.184 20:39, 20 February 2006 (UTC)
[edit] Translation
The translation is dreadful. I have seen a translation somewhere that actually preserves the rhyme - it starts (I remember very little unfortunately)
- days of wrath and terror looming
- heaven and earth to ash consuming
- david's quoth and sybills dooming
and I have seen a more modern translation that also achieves this (but not to the same meter)
- That day of wrath and grief and shame
- Shall fold the world in sheeted flame
- As David's psalm and Sibyl's songs proclaim
could someone please find an uncopyrighted translation that actually does the poem justice?
- The translation as it stood was meant to be, in essence, a crib, giving the English sense of the Latin as literally as possible. My
personal favourite for an English translation is the one by Ambrose Bierce. -- Smerdis of Tlön 16:16, 8 May 2005 (UTC)
- When the sheep are then selected
From the goats, may I, respected
Stand among them undetected.
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- Here's a link to the complete Bierce version. -- Smerdis of Tlön 15:12, 9 May 2005 (UTC)
I disagree--if we are going to find a translation, it would be best to pick a literal translation, imho, and not a rhyming translation that isn't any good.
What is more important? Word-for-word, or meaning-and-poeticness? Most translations of ancient texts try to preserve special aspects such as metrical construction. A translation of Gadsby would be defeating the point if it put back the e's. ~~~~ 21:05, 10 July 2005 (UTC)
- I disagree, if only because I tend to think that when significant foreign language texts appear in the English Wikipedia, the reader ought to know exactly what they mean, rather than being given a poetic paraphrase. That said, if there's a traditional translation of the hymn used by the Roman Catholic Church, I've no objection to it: there's no reason not to have both the literal and the poetic versions. Out of curiosity, whose translation is it and when was it written? They should be credited as a source. Smerdis of Tlön 22:04, 10 July 2005 (UTC)
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- I agree that choice doesn't have to fall to either exact *or* poetic. Do both. Provide the most accurate translation and an example of (one of) the most symmetric (?) translations? Speed8ump 21:23, 7 November 2006 (UTC)
[edit] Sweeney Todd
Whoever put the bit about the Dies Irae showing up all over Sweeney Todd, rock on! I just added a bit, and linked to the new page for the musical specifically. IvanP 18:12, 16 August 2005 (UTC)
[edit] Roger Zelazny
It may be too obscure, but this is also the title of a book by Roger Zelazny.
- You're thinking Deus Irae. His title translates differently. 68.104.201.53 06:43, 28 January 2006 (UTC)
[edit] Notation accidentals?
It seems like the D-sharps in the notation ought to be E-flats... —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 68.105.133.39 (talk) 04:46, 11 October 2005
- This is really a music theory question. I'm not certain which notation you are referring to here (as the only written music on the page has no sharps), but I suspect that whatever key your piece is written in it uses a number of sharps. Most people find it easier to remember additional sharps than a mixed collection of sharps and flats. You might also be interested in the existance of the double sharp accidental --Speed8ump from 207.235.66.3 19:04, 1 December 2006 (UTC)
[edit] Link to "super-literal" version
I seem to recall that, somewhere on Wikipedia, there used to be a link to a "super-literal" version - there the whole thing was broken down word-by-word, translated precisely, so that it really didn't make any sense - but you knew exactly what each word translated to. It didn't read like any kind of coherent English. The link to the "literal version", an external document, really doesn't go to the same length. Does anyone recall the version I'm talking about? I can't find it anymore, but would love to see that version again.
[edit] MIDI
What about a dies ire midi file including the whole melody? Does anyone here want to volunteer for it?----
[edit] Dies Irae in The Hymnal 1940 (Episcopal) and Scripture reference
For the music of Dies Irae (plainsong sequence- 13th century) and the poetic translation by William J. Irons (1849)go to The Hymnal 1940 (Episcopal) number 468. The text has an archaic quality, a lot of words ending in "-eth", but you get the gist of it. "Day of wrath! O day of mourning! See fulfilled the prophets' warning, Heav'n and earth in ashes burning! O what fear man's bosom rendeth When from heav'n the Judge descendeth, On whose sentence all dependeth! Wondrous sound the trumpet flingeth; Through earth's sepulchers it ringeth; All before the throne it bringeth. Death is struck, and nature quaking, All creation is awaking, To its Judge an answer making. Lo, the book, exactly worded, Wherein all hath been recorded: Thence shall judgment be awarded. When the Judge his seat attaineth And each hidden deed arraigneth, Nothing unavenged remaineth.[...]" That's just the first six verses of nineteen, altogether.
It's important to note that the writer, Thomas of Celano, based his poem on different portions of Holy Scripture, but mostly on the book of Revelation, chapter 20, verses 11-15 for the picture of the Last Judgement.
[edit] Disambiguation
The Polish language version of this article links to a really nice disambiguation page: pl:Dies_irae_(strona_ujednoznaczniająca). --82.170.209.184 20:39, 20 February 2006 (UTC)
[edit] Heroes 5 Haven Town
Which verses of the "Lacrimosa" are sung in the game Heroes of Might and Magic 5 in the Haven town? Here's what I understand the woman sing:
Lacrimosa dies, dies illa Qua resurget ex favilla Judicandus homo reus
Tuba mirum spargens sonum ??????????????????? ??????????????????? Tuba mirum spargens sonum Would you write what does she sing in those "????" ?
[edit] Recent reference
For the References in Popular Culture:
I probably need someone with more astute ears to confirm this, but if I'm not mistaken, during Elias' Pillowpants monologue in the recently released film Clerks II, the Dies Irae theme can be heard playing in the background.
[edit] Oscar Wilde's poem
Here is a reference to the poem Sonnet on hearing the Dies Irae sung in the Sistine Chapel http://www.bartleby.com/143/19.html
