Talk:Deuterocanonical books

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I'm somewhat puzzled by the reference to 2 Esdras here (left over from an earlier version of the page), since 2 Esdras isn't actually one of the Deutero books, or at least it isn't listed in the list. Anyone know the Real Story?

There is confusion about the Esdras books, see Esdras.

Contents 1 WikiProject 2 suggestion to merge with apocrypha 3 Deuterocanonical vs. Apocrypha 4 Deuterocanonical vs. Anaginoskomena 5 See also 6 Who considers Esther and Song of Songs to be Deuterocanonical 6.1 Temporarily moved from article 6.2 Proposed restoration 7 Contradiction between Deuterocanonical books and Books of the Bible articles 8 Intro 9 Jerome and the Deuteros 10 Deuterocanonical not a theological term 11 References to Protestantism 12 Remove "Anaginoskomena" section? 13 Additions to Jeremiah?

[edit] WikiProject

Based on a suggestion in Wikipedia:Pages needing attention, I have started the skeleton of a WikiProject to try to cut down on the overlap between the various presentations of the canon. I think that a lot of people working here will want input on this. Feel free! Mpolo 13:58, Sep 14, 2004 (UTC)

[edit] suggestion to merge with apocrypha

• That would not be neutral. For Catholics, the deuterocanonicals and apocrypha are not the same. For Protestants, who reject the deuterocanonicals, they are the same. See Biblical Canon 64.169.5.155 on 26 July 2005

• While Protestants consider neither the deuterocanonicals nor the apocryphals to be the inspired Word of God appropriate for cannonization, the deuterocanonicals are still considered of historical value, especially 1 and 2 Maccabees. They are not the same. Jzylstra on 3 August 2005

• The two are NOT to be merged. They are two separate things, and merging the articles would only confuse things more. Merge them and you might as well as merge New Testament with Jewish Tanakh. --FourthAve 12:39, 12 August 2005 (UTC)

• - while they are not the same, some differentation is needed. Is the Apocrapha the deutros plus esdras (which were in the 1609 douay)? or is Apocrypha the wider pseudographica? Some tidy up is required. On balance I would favor that the aricle on the deutrocannonical should have something about the Apocrypha (as defined in the 1609 kjav)--ClemMcGann 20:54, 13 August 2005 (UTC)

• do not merge as per above Roodog2k 02:35, 31 August 2005 (UTC)

• These should not be merged, as they are separate things. driscolj 03:10, 10 September 2005 (UTC)

• I vote strongly do not merge. Apocrypha is 'hidden', Deuterocanonicals likewise 'second canon'. I am mormon, and consider myself neither catholic nor protestant. EG: I claim the 'Book of Mormon' to be canon, perhaps I could call it a 'second canon'. Yet I don't consider it part of the Apocrypha despite parallels. Others may find the book Tobit (or Tobias) apocryphal, but not canonical. I see apocrypha and canon as independant things, which ought not be defined as one;Whereas apocrypha, a concept and title given to a set of books, and Canon the proverbial "list of books" which a given religion reveres as holy scripture. To structure for clarity, and prevent sectorial content domination, keep the ideas separate; . . .[now that i've had my rant] have we discussed enough to remove the "merge?" baners and to allow the community to improve the articles? I perveice a basic consensis so far. (and ClemMcGann, I think you're on to something.)--Bielenberg 16:37, 12 September 2005 (UTC)

• Do no merge...the two are distinct. However, coordination must occur so that content is not overly duplicated and assertions in each article are not contradictory --Dpr 02:39, 13 September 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Deuterocanonical vs. Apocrypha

• What Catholics term deuterocanonical books, Protestants term apocrypha. For extra-biblical books (Old Testament or New) which are part of neither canon are termed pseudepigraphy (an article that needs some work, by the way, including changing the name to pseudepigraphia.
• 1 & 2 Esdras is the form that appears in some Protestant versions of the apocrypha; Catholics term 1st Esdras as 3rd Esdras and regard it as extra-canonical (along with the Prayer of Manassah), but of sufficient quality to be associated with the Bible. Other versions call these books Ezra.

--FourthAve 00:07, 18 August 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Deuterocanonical vs. Anaginoskomena

Deuterocanonical is a term coined by a Catholic theologian to refer to 7 books and 4 parts of books defined as canonical by the council of Trent. It is a very particular definition which is not applicable to Eastern or Oriental or Ethiopian Orthodox except as a loose analogy. These churches simply do not have canons as well defined as that of Trent or of Luther. Greeks call books of the Septuagint that are not in the Tanakh Anaginoskomena. I don't know what Ethiopians call them, but I doubt it's deuterocanonicals.

This article needs to be entirely restructured to avoid obscuring this fact. Rwflammang 17:18, 4 July 2006 (UTC)

You just included a reference to http://www.sxws.com/charis/apol6.htm which says on its board "The Purpose of this board is to EXPOSE the false teaching of Catholicism in light of Scripture." I suggest that you remove it. ClemMcGann 18:18, 4 July 2006 (UTC)

I don't see this reference. Rwflammang 16:40, 5 July 2006 (UTC)

Found the reference. It predated my edit. I removed it anyway.

[edit] See also

Talk:Apocrypha

[edit] Who considers Esther and Song of Songs to be Deuterocanonical

I found a very odd and unsourced claim in this article. Who considers Esther and Song of Songs to be Deuterocanonical? RK 02:17, 6 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Temporarily moved from article

To which are sometimes added:

• Esther
• Song of Songs

Of the deuterocanonical books, the last two are the only ones widely accepted today by Protestants and Jews.

[edit] Proposed restoration

Links to references can be found in the article Protocanonical books. I don't want to digress too much on this subject since almost everyone considers the whole Tanakh to be protocanonical, but I thought some mention must be made. I propose the following sentence:

Some add to this list one or more of Esther, Song of Songs, Ecclesiastes, Job, or Ezra-Nehemiah due to their absence in some early canons. See the article Protocanonical books for more details.

Rwflammang 05:06, 6 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Contradiction between Deuterocanonical books and Books of the Bible articles

In the Deuterocanonical books article, it is implied that Protestants do not have any of the deuterocanonical books in their canon at all, except for these three:

• 1 Esdras
• 2 Esdras
• Prayer of Manasseh

Yet the Books of the Bible article does not list these three books. (Nor does it list any of the other deuterocanonical books. Which article is correct? And is it really true that all Protestant groups reject all of the other Deuterocanonical books? RK 02:36, 6 July 2006 (UTC)

Don't know why these books aren't listed there. They are in the Vulgate. Rwflammang 16:34, 6 July 2006 (UTC)

It's hard to generalize about Protestants, of course, but I've never seen a Bible published in English by a Protestant that contained deuteros in its Old Testament. These are always in the Apocrypha section if it's present, and completely absent if it's not. I have seen them in Prot. Bibles published in Latin and a really old one in Spanish though, so all would be an exageration. Rwflammang 05:27, 6 July 2006 (UTC)

Aslo, doesn't this sentence contradict the paragraph which precedes it in this article?

As Protestants do not recognize the authority of the Council of Trent, they usually consider most of the deuterocanonical books to be part of the Biblical apocrypha.

The word apocryphal means non-canonical. Does that clear it up? See the change I made to the article. Rwflammang 05:11, 6 July 2006 (UTC)

No it does not. That is just an opinion. Apocryphal actually means hidden. The reason why these books are so called, and the reason why they are in a separate section (among those who accept 2Esdras), is in obedience to 2Esdras14:44-48 "So during the forty days, ninety-four books were written. And when the forty days were ended, the Most High spoke to me, saying, "Make public the twenty-four books that you wrote first, and let the worthy and the unworthy read them; but keep the seventy that were written last, in order to give them to the wise among your people. For in them is the spring of understanding, the fountain of wisdom, and the river of knowledge." And I did so". There is now, too much opinion in the article. ClemMcGann 08:08, 6 July 2006 (UTC)

In the preface to the 1611 KJAV, it is said that these books prepared the way of the Lord "This is the translation of the Seventy interpreters, commonly so called, which prepared the way for our Saviour among the Gentiles by written preaching, as Saint John Baptist did among the Jews by vocal."

There was no suggestion in the 1611 that these books were non-canonical. The opposite is the case "The translation of the Seventy dissenteth from the original in many places, neither doth it come near it for perspicuity, gravity, majesty; yet which of the Apostles did condemn it? Condemn it? Nay, they used it, (as it is apparent, and as Saint Hierome and most learned men do confess) which they would not have done, nor by their example of using it, so grace and commend it to the Church, if it had been unworthy the appellation and name of the Word of God." ClemMcGann 08:08, 6 July 2006 (UTC)

How is reporting that (most) Protestants do not regard the Apocrypha as canonical too much opinion? For that matter, Catholics do not usually call books they consider canonical apocrypha. Call a deuterocanonical book apocryphon on wikipedia and you'll stir up a firestorm. Jerome used the word apocrypha to mean non-canonical in his prologues, and most western Christians have followed his usage, if not the canon he mentions. Rwflammang 15:49, 6 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Intro

Does this paragraph really belong in the intro?

The term apocryphal is sometimes used pejoratively, leading to the use of deuterocanonical as a euphemism. This euphemistic use of deuterocanonical contributes to the confusion between the deuterocanon and the Apocrypha.

Rwflammang 05:18, 6 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Jerome and the Deuteros

In his prologues, Jerome describes a canon which excludes the deuteros, but he does not advocate for this canon. He never says it should be adopted. He just describes it in a matter of fact way. Although he called the deuteros apocrypha, he never said they should not be part of the Bible. On the contrary, he called them scripture in the same paragraph where he called them apocrypha. The idea that only canonical books should be in the Christian Bible does not pre-date the 17th century, when the first Christian bible without any apocrypha was printed. Rwflammang 14:16, 19 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Deuterocanonical not a theological term

Although coined by a theologian, as the article correctly states, the word deuterocanonical isn't actually a theological term, since it doesn't deal with the nature of God, which is one common definition. A minor point, but I think it's an important one, especially since this whole article involves fine shades of meaning.

--StephenMacmanus 02:58, 30 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] References to Protestantism

I don't want to start an acrimonious debate between members of the various Christian denominations, but I do think that this article should specifically refer to the Protestant traditions when appropriate, since the contents of the Biblical canon is one of many topics disputed during the Reformation. In particular, I think the reference to "Some Christians" in the second paragraph is merely confusing, and hope that the explicit mentions of Protestantism clarifies the discussion of the Apocrypha. Comments? Suggestions?

--StephenMacmanus 03:53, 30 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Remove "Anaginoskomena" section?

It seems to me that the term "anaginoskomena" is a synonym for the Catholic deuterocanon, and could be moved to that section, while the remaining information in this section is more appropriate for the existing article which discusses the formation of the biblical canon. I don't think it is related to the term "deuterocanonical" at all, but will not make such a significant change without feedback. Comments?

--StephenMacmanus 04:14, 30 July 2006 (UTC)

Although I agree with the second part of your comment, I disagree with the first. Anaginoskomena is not a synonym for deuterocanon, at least not in the RC sense of the word. Anaginoskomena includes 1 Esdras (aka 3 Esdras), Odes (arguably) with the Prayer of Manasses. Also maybe some other things I can't think of off the top of my head. Oh yeah, like 3 and 4 Maccabees. While anaginoskomena is very analagous to the RC idea of the deuterocanon (which causes a lot of confusion), it is distinct in the list of particular books. This list is (relatively) well defined for the RC deuterocanon, I'm not sure how well it is defined for the anaginoskomena.

There is more to the deuterocanon than the Septuagint issue. Some of the deuteros exist or existed in Aramaic and Hebrew versions. Some are or were found in other Greek versions (besides the LXX), namely Theodotion's, which most Greeks have used and still use for Daniel since the LXX Daniel is so bizarre. All this makes this subject tricky to describe. All the more so since the LXX issue was probably the dominant, though not the only one, in early discrepancies between canons. Rwflammang 15:17, 31 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Additions to Jeremiah?

An anonymous editor has styled the book of Baruch and the Letter of Jeremiah as Additions to Jeremiah. When corrected, he reverted with this comment: (Baruch is an addition to Jeremiah in the Septuagint, whether it is "printed" separately, as it typically is in apocryphal collections, is irrelevant). This comment is erroneous in two ways.

• Whether the book is printed separately is entirely relevent; it determines whether it is a separate book or an addition of Jeremiah.
• It is not an addition to the Septuagint in any edition of the Septuagint I have seen, which includes Brenton, Swete, a Greek Othodox on-line edition, and this academic edition.

It is true that in ancient times Athanasius counted Baruch as part of Jeremiah, but the deuterocanon is a 17th century idea, not an ancient one. I suggest that this anonymous editor cite a contemporary source if he wants to call Baruch an addition to Jeremiah. Rwflammang 16:16, 4 October 2006 (UTC)

It's listed as an addition in Alfred Rahlfs critical edition which is the standard critical edition of the Septuagint. In addition: Swete's Introduction to the Old Testament in Greek, chapter III, section 6:

"Baruch and the Epistle of Jeremiah were regarded by the Church as adjuncts of Jeremiah, much in the same way as Susanna and Bel were attached to Daniel. Baruch and the Epistle occur in lists which rigorously exclude the non-canonical books; they are cited as 'Jeremiah' (Iren. v. 35. I, Tert. scorp. 8, Clem. Alex. paed. i. 10, Cypr. testim. ii. 6); with Lamentations they form a kind of trilogy supplementary to the prophecy."

75.0.0.4 19:34, 4 October 2006 (UTC)

Online: [1]

Thank you for posting your sources, and especially for making them so convenient to examine on-line. From what I understand, it seems that these two critical editions of the Septuagint are citing ancient sources. I only mentioned one ancient source in my criticism above, Athanasius, but what I said of him I will say also of Swete and Rahlfs: the incontrovertable fact that (some of? most of? all of?) the ancients counted Baruch as part of Jeremiah does not make it relevant to a discussion of a 16th century canon, or more to the point, "deutero" canon.

My problem with the modified list is that it does not add clarity, rather, it potentially confuses the reader. This is especially true if he clicks through the link to Additions to Jeremiah, he is brought to a section describing how much shorter the Septuagint version of Jeremiah is, rather than how much longer it is. A reader could even get the impression that it is the Hebrew which has the additions, rather than the Septuagint. (Although this might well be so, it is not the Hebrew that is in the deuterocanon.) This confusion is only compounded by the fact that a multitude of bibles published since Trent do not follow the practice of the ancients, but count Baruch as seperate book. The decree of Trent itself mentions Baruch by name, unlike the additions to Daniel or Esther.

While the ancient practice of counting Baruch as part of Jeremiah is interesting and worthy of inclusion in this article, the nature of a list is necessarily to give a brief run down of only the most pertinent points. I would favor moving the remark about Additions to Jeremiah out of the list and into the body of the text, or making it secondary, like so:

• Baruch, including the Letter of Jeremiah (appended to Jeremiah in manuscripts of the Septuagint)

I would recomend against linking to the section Additions to Jeremiah until its content sheds light on this article. Rwflammang 16:54, 5 October 2006 (UTC)

Since you bring up Trent, it specifically says: "Ieremias cum Baruch" (Jeremiah with Baruch).75.15.207.171 17:21, 5 October 2006 (UTC)

I like the latest edits. Rwflammang 18:27, 5 October 2006 (UTC)