Talk:Defenceman (ice hockey)

Proposal is soundly defeated. -- 02-28-06

The intent is to archive this decision, please do not edit.

I think the spelling of the word "Defenceman" for ice hockey should be changed in all instances to "Defenseman". Other sports, such as cricket, should continue to use the british standard "Defenceman", but it doesn't make sense for ice hockey.

The issue at hand are certain differences in the English language that have come about between North America and England since the colonies were started. Most can be attributed to Webster's logicalization of english, and I'm not sure if that applies to this word specifically, but it's notable anyway. Other such words include "Tyre" and "Theatre"

I have many different reasons for changing it in relation to the hockey article, and this is why:

• Ice Hockey is predominately a North American sport, and using the word "Defencemen" would be the same as someone editing the baseball article and calling the person who swings the bat the "batsman" instead of the "batter".
• Most European nations that play ice hockey don't speak english natively, and therefore would most likely use the north american spelling.
• Google search results indicate that there are 620,000 instances of "Defenseman" while only 129,000 instances of "Defencemen" and most of those that reference "Defencemen" are referencing the cricket position.
• Google was used to determine the frequency of both words on the International Ice Hockey Federation homepage at [2]. 66 instances of "Defenceman" and 506 instances of "Defenseman" were found.
• Google was used to determine the frequency of both words on the National Hockey League homepage at [3]. 120 instances of "Defenceman" and 13,500 instances of "Defenseman"
• Google: Swedish Elite League homepage at [4]. 38 instances of "Defenceman" and 7 instances of "Defenseman" were found.
• Google: European Hockey dot net [5] 192 instances of "Defenceman", 252 instances of "Defenseman".
• In the article itself I am commenting on, the word "Defensive" is used in a title. From a language standpoint, it doesn't make sense to have one word have a root of "Defense" and another root word be "Defence"

I believe I have proven that, in the case of ice hockey, the north american spelling should be used when describing this position. I have proven that there is not 100% consistancy in the usage, but I have also prove it is far more prevelently used by authoritative sources than the spelling "Defenceman" in the case of ice hockey.

[edit] Discussion

"Defense" is the US spelling, not the North American spelling. The correct Canadian spelling is "defence" (as well as British). "Defensive" is the correct spelling of the word no matter where you are. See here for a reference. Note that Canadian English does not match US English exactly nor British English exactly. In the other examples you gave, the correct Canadian spelling is "tire", just like in the US, and "theatre", like in Britain. I believe that there is no reason to change the article name. -- JamesTeterenko 15:59, 27 February 2006 (UTC)

Ok I was wrong about using "North American" spelling, so "Defence" is the british and canadian spelling. Still, that fault on my part doesn't change that "Defenseman" is far FAR more prominately used Internationally in the sport of ice hockey. Why shouldn't we conform to the ad hoc international standard?--Jeff 16:06, 27 February 2006 (UTC)

If "Most European nations that play ice hockey don't speak english natively, and therefore would most likely use the north american spelling", then what is the ad hoc international standard ? Canadian spelling ? US spelling ? Pick one. -- PFHLai 16:28, 27 February 2006 (UTC)

That's my suggestion, going with the predominate US spelling. --Jeff 17:57, 27 February 2006 (UTC)

On 31 March 2004, the predominate Canadian spelling was chosen [6], and has been in use since. I am not saying 'Defenseman' with an 'S' is wrong, but it would be wrong to go against standard wikiprotocol to switch from one version of English spelling to another. This goes for any article in Wikipedia. Unless an obvious mistake was made, e.g. using American spelling in an article about Medieval Britain, we do not switch. -- PFHLai 22:38, 27 February 2006 (UTC)

• Oppose The proposed move is not supported. Defenceman with a 'C' is fine. The spelling style preferred by the first major contributor to the wikiarticle should be respected, as per Wikipedia: Manual of Style. -- PFHLai 16:23, 27 February 2006 (UTC)

"If an article's subject has a strong tie to a specific region/dialect, it should use that dialect." from Manual_of_Style#National_varieties_of_English. The "remaining with the the original contributors style" clause is only in effect if nothing else applies. In this case, the article's dialectal use of english is contrary to the used standard. It just doesn't make sense that wiki should use a spelling that is contrary to what the standard is. --Jeff 17:57, 27 February 2006 (UTC)

Are you suggesting that hockey does not have a strong tie to Canada? -- JamesTeterenko 19:05, 27 February 2006 (UTC)

Not not at all. I am, however, suggesting that all evidence i can find suggests that "Defenseman" is the accepted spelling of the word in regards to the ice hockey position.. --Jeff 19:30, 27 February 2006 (UTC)

Okay, in the Canadian Dictionary link above, it states that the correct Canadian spelling for the word is with a "c". If you want Google evidence (which isn't the greatest way to tell), how about searching Hockey Canada. It has 131 hits containing one of the words (defence, defenceman, defencemen), while 82 hits with one of the words (defense, defenseman, defensemen). If you remove articles that have both spellings (speaking to potential typos), the usage is even more in favour of defence. 112 hits for defence and 52 hits for defense. Do you have any sources that suggest that the correct Canadian spelling is defense? -- JamesTeterenko 19:49, 27 February 2006 (UTC)

The standard ? 'Defenseman' with an 'S' is not the but one of the accepted spellings. The wiki has not used a spelling that is contrary to what the standard is in the English-speaking world. 'Defenceman' with a 'C' is widely used in Canada. -- PFHLai 22:53, 27 February 2006 (UTC)

• Oppose. Look, I've been in the thick of the linguistic wars as much as anyone, and have gotten into defenseman/defenceman battles myself. That being said, it is self-evident that a large percentage of contributors, players and teams are based in and from Canada, and use ca-en usages for the term. "Defenseman" is the accepted spelling of the term only in the United States, it is not the accepted spelling in Canada, and trying to impose a universal standard where none actually exists would be a violation of the rules and needlessly antagonize many valued Canadian contributors. This is the English Wikipedia, not the "United States Wikipedia." RGTraynor 19:59, 27 February 2006 (UTC)

• Oppose This is a tiresome subject. We been at this before and the end resolution was the context of the article dictates the spelling. Basically "when in Rome, do as the Romans" ccwaters 20:52, 27 February 2006 (UTC)

• Oppose like every other person who is involved with Wikihockey. I've this argument with RGTraynor before only on the topic of "centre" over "center". However as it stands, both American and Canadian/English spelling can work, depending on where the player was born and where he has played the most notably. I do think that Defenseman (ice hockey) should redirect to Defenceman (ice hockey) so that it is not just a blank page. Croat Canuck 21:15, 27 February 2006 (UTC)

FYI, I just created the redirect. -- JamesTeterenko 22:10, 27 February 2006 (UTC)

• Oppose Defenseman already redirects to this article anyway, and like everybody else said, defenceman with a C is just as correct and arguably more common. 216.167.244.113 21:43, 27 February 2006 (UTC)

• OPPOSE ice hockey should use Canadian spelling by default 132.205.45.110 22:12, 27 February 2006 (UTC)

• Oppose Defensive is from the root defence. Defencive hasn't been a word in any form of English since the 17th century.--Cherry blossom tree 00:15, 28 February 2006 (UTC)

• • FYI much of the use of "defencive" was my doing, and as I am a historian and had just been doing a lot of reading before writing this, I am not going to make any defence (har, har) of my actions. All told, though, really, just leave it the way it is. Inconsistencies are one thing, but arguing over which is right isn't going to be useful. It's defenceman, so "defence" is proper. If it were "defenseman" I'd argue the same way for "defense". Battlemonk 06:47, 28 February 2006 (UTC)

• Oppose Spelling differences between various versions are trivial and we don't switch version without a good reason. No good reason has been provided. Zocky | picture popups 00:24, 28 February 2006 (UTC)

You know, the funny thing is I have to think about how to spell it. Defense or defence, gray or grey. ccwaters 01:31, 28 February 2006 (UTC)

• Comment articles about American players and teams should use US spellings, and about Canadian players and should use Canadian spellings. In all other cased the language of the major contributor should apply. For the main article a redirect and an explanation in the introduction should suffice. Kevlar67 07:01, 28 February 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Final Words

Hi original proposer here. I see there's pretty much no way of winning this one and bow to the overwhelming concensus. I almost give up. I like Kevlar67's suggestion regarding the spelling in articles about the NHL or any other US-centric ice hockey article. I checked around, and the spellings are "defencemen" in the NHL article and probably many other places that might have a better arguement for it there. I will raise the question again in the future after I find out how "Defens/ceman" is spelled (or if it is) in the inscription on the James Norris Memorial Trophy. --Jeff 23:03, 28 February 2006 (UTC)