Talk:David Hume

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[edit] this article is pretty bad.

this article is pretty bad. it reads like a brochure for a hotel or something. eg:

Free will versus determinism Just about everyone has noticed the apparent conflict between free will and determinism – if your actions were determined to happen billions of years ago, then how can they be up to you?

[edit] This article is 51 KB long. Should it be cut?

Ideally, we're told, Wikipedia articles should be no more than 32 kilobytes long. This one is 51. If the issue of size really is important, then this should be a prime example of an article that's too long. I notice that the descriptions of Hume's works repeats information that is either in articles devoted exclusively to the work being described here or repeating information in the "Life" section. It seems an ideal place to cut, and I cut a couple of the items. One possibility for the future could be creating an article "Philosophy of David Hume" and moving the sections on philosophy there. Possibly a list of philosophical works would be in a section there, with descriptions of anything not already discussed, and the list here would be cut back further. I'm not familiar enough with Hume to feel comfortable doing this myself.Noroton 02:53, 2 September 2006 (UTC)

Omitting all the stuff at the bottom, it is 36 kB --JimWae 02:42, 2 September 2006 (UTC)

I took another look at the Wiki page about article length. I see it's really only a recommendation that articles normally be about 32kB, and only the main part of an article should be considered for that (excluding things like external links). Probably an article on David Hume is one of those that deserves to be much longer. I took a look at some other biographical articles and see that George Washington and Thomas Jefferson are much longer.Noroton 02:53, 2 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Template

I've added the philosopher template. --- Skubicki 02:36, 18 September 2005 (UTC)

[edit] To do

Suggested things that could be done-- More dates would be nice, maybe a timeline or something. Perhaps more info on his work as a historian. More explication of his ideas. Links to off-wikipedia resources.

[edit] Personality

I often hear it mentioned that Hume was really friendly, had a good reputation, liked to party... any truth to this? Is it false? I'd like to know about him as a person, insofar as this page is not just a "summation of important arguments" but an encyclopedia article about a person.

[edit] History

Hume's six volume History of England was his most popular work during his life time, and his interest in history, especially that of the classical Greeks and Romans, shows itself frequently in his essays. Someone ought to write at least a brief summary of his works in this field.

[edit] Impression-idea epistemology

I notice that there is no section on the Impression-Idea epistemology. This is the most criticised part of Hume's philosophy, so it doesn't surprise me that no-one wants to talk about it too much. I may look over the book and write it myself soon.

[edit] More Detailed References?

I don't know my Hume enough to do it myself, but it really should say which essays/books each of the listed major topics can be found in.

-sidd

Yeah, that's a problem throughout wikipedia, and one that many editors seem combatant about rectifying... Sorry. Any specific essays or books you'd like to know about? -Seth Mahoney 01:44, Feb 25, 2005 (UTC)

In which work(s) did he dicuss the design problem? It would be interesting to date his "mechanical explanation of teleology" in order to put it in perspective of other proto-darwinian thought. -A.Miller

Try the Enquiry Concerning Human Understanding and Dialogues Concerning Natural Reason. -Seth Mahoney 01:57, Apr 2, 2005 (UTC)

It's "Dialogues Concerning Natural Religion," not reason.

I just thought someone might add to the "Life" section that Hume graduated from Edinburgh at age fifteen. Just reading up for my philosophy class and noticed it. Don't remember the name of the book, but I'll look if it's of any importance. -Jessymac 00:06, 10 May 2006 (UTC)

He left Edinburgh University as you say, but he did not graduate. I understand that in his period, gentlemen were expected to go up to university but collecting degrees was not an essential part of an education. Indeed, I read somewhere that it was regarded as rather unfashionable to do so. Hume was not enamoured by university education and thought you could get all you needed from books - His views on professors are mentioned in the article. Fenton Robb 11:41, 9 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Section for his shorter essays?

Hume's essays in the "Essays Moral and Political" touch on subjects not covered in this article as of yet that have nevertheless made important contributions to various areas of study. A good example would be the essay "Of the Standard of Taste", which is frequently studied under aesthetics. Perhaps a small section concerning areas towards which Hume has made a contribution, even if they weren't his main focus, would be a good idea? Anria 09:14, 14 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Regularity of nature

For example, physicists' laws of planetary orbit work for describing past planetary behavior, so we presume that they'll work for describing future planetary behavior as well.

So could we say that, for Hume, it was not an issue whether or not the laws of planetary orbit actually did work for describing past behavior? Despite there maybe being small discrepancies between theoretical predictions and observed astronomical data so far, and despite the fact that we have not been able to observe all planetary bodies accurately for all times past, he's going to accept that the laws have actually described planetary behavior acceptably until now?

More generally, does Hume accept that nature has been regular "so far", and merely question whether or not it is reasonable to assume the future will be also? Or is the regularity of things "so far" ever also an issue?

--Ryguasu 18:05 Nov 4, 2002 (UTC)

Well, it can be an issue. But it's an issue decidable by standard empirical means. To the extent that we don't know, then we should limit our claims. But it's not a problem, in principle. One of Hume's examples, that bread has so far nourished humans, is an easily ascertainable matter of fact. If there's any problem here, it's one completely unlike the problem with inductions to the future.

--Dr. Retard

Sorry, but Hume was not saying anything at all about what happens out there in Nature, other than to say we cannot know anything about it. What he is addressing is what we perceive and think about what we perceive. Sometimes we see regularity and think that because of that, there will be regularity in the future. Similarly with cause and effect- custom and habit lead us to associate one event with the another and we then attribute a causal relation between them. And that's all there is to it.

Fenton Robb 15:07, 25 February 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Causation

I changed the bit on causation - it's a huge issue whether Hume really made any ontological claims about causation - in fact, to move from epistemological ignorance to an all-out denial that something is ontologically real seems like a bizarre move for someone who was so sceptical about the powers of human reason. But perhaps I've gone too far from NPOV? It would be nice to sum up the debate, though a debate about what Hume said wouldn't fit the page very well given its current structure, I feel. Thoughts? -- Evercat

Well done. I was quite aware of this issue when I first wrote it and tried to word things 'just so'. But you caught my slips. If you feel like adding something: what I forgot was Hume's foreshadowing of logical positivism, and all the famous quotes. --Dr. Retard

Sadly (or happily maybe) logical positivism was never something I really studied. -- Evercat 20:18 May 8, 2003 (UTC)

Hume's thoughts on causation and the nervous system bring to mind the theory of neocortical brain function proposed by Jeff Hawkins. The memory predictive framework. Looks as if Hume's assertions about connections to the nervous system is something Hawkins studied more deeply. Maybe mention of Hawkins work would be a good addition?

Did Russell ever explicitly deny causation? Perhaps a reference could be given?

Yes, I think so, for in denying induction, he also denies causation. '"What these [Hume's} arguments prove - and I do not think the proof can be controverted - is that induction is an independent logical principle, incapable of being inferred either from experience or from other logical principles, and that without this principle science is impossible" Russell, B (1946) History of Western Philosophy. Allen and Unwin p.700.

Fenton Robb 02:44, 26 February 2006 (UTC)

I have a problem with the line "free will is incompatible with indeterminism. Imagine that your actions are not determined by what events came before. Then your actions are, it seems, completely random." This is not valid reasoning, as the usual claim of hard determinism is that "one's actions are always caused by previous events." If indeterminism is the logical negation of determinism, then indeterminism is not the claim that "one's actions are NEVER caused by previous events." It is instead, "one's actions are NOT ALWAYS caused by previous events." Kraniac 22:59, 11 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Gender views

Hume had some pretty outrageous views on gender and women, I didn't find anything about that in the article. It might be a good idea to include, if nothing else then to show how one perhaps shouldn't accept Everything a 'great mind' says... (also I believe he does generalize and go against his own is-ought rules there, when saying that because women are made to feel shame, society ought to keep making women feel shameful)

That is from the section on chastity, isn't it? Hume didn't violate the is-ought rule there; he was describing an "is" and not an "ought". He was talking about why it is that all human societies levy such a stigma on flirtarious women. He said that men get very possessive about their property and don't like to think that a child may not be their own, so they expect women to be modest and reserved. I think that was a reasonable explanation. You may disagree, but I don't see how it's outrageous.

Exactly. Hume was using his moral psychology to explain observable social phenomena. It's called A Treatise of Human Nature for a reason.

[edit] another Hume

Hi all.

Scots law, among other pages, mentions David Hume - but the legal writer, nephew of this one. If anyone knows enough about him to write a stub, it'd be greatly appreciated - I know virtually nothing about either besides seeing Hume's statue every time I go into town... Shimgray 17:44, 17 Apr 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Date of birth

Encyclopaedia Britannica quotes May 7, soI guess that April 26 is an old style date?

Indeed, yes! In 'My Own Life' he writes "I was born the 26th April 1711, old style, at Edinburgh". The Life of David Hume, Esq. Written by Himself, London, 1777. quoted in Norton, David Faith, (1994) The Cambridge Companion to David Hume, Cambridge University Press p. 351. Fenton Robb 20:32, 7 December 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Hume & Reid

This article states that

"Hume failed to gain chairs of philosophy in Edinburgh and in Glasgow, probably due to charges of atheism, and to the opposition of one of his chief critics, Thomas Reid."

whereas the Thomas Reid article states that

"He [Reid] had a great admiration for Hume, and asked him to correct the first manuscript of his (Reid's) Inquiry."

If Reid had so profound a change of heart regarding Hume that seems it should me mentioned in the articles, if not this contradiction should be resolved and the appropriate article corrected.

I qualified this as a temp measure. Fenton Robb 13:02, 25 February 2006 (UTC)

[edit] cleanup

can the bit about his birthday be adjusted so the intro paragraph is more readable? maybe a * next to his birthday and *footnote after the paragraph sometime? Spencerk 07:37, 27 November 2005 (UTC)

Yes - I did a bit on this - does it satisfy?Fenton Robb 13:01, 25 February 2006 (UTC)

[edit] The differences between the Enquiries and Treatise

Hi,

I think a passage on the many differences in style, content and tone there are between the Enquiries and Treatise should be included here. The reasons for the changes and a precis of said changes would improve this article a great deal. The L A Selby-Bigge edition of Enquiries has much good information in this area. Frank Carmody 01:50, 19 January 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Hume seen through various lenses

Undeterred by the remark that this page may be overlong, I have tried to collect together many opinions of Hume's philosopical position. This with the many references has added to the piece, but I think it is worth it and I hope others agree. I have enlarged on other aspects of his life and drawn attention to "My Own Life" which give us some insight into his view of his own career and his attitude to hs impending death.

Fenton Robb 19:20, 25 February 2006 (UTC)

I regret that someone has seen fit to delete a small piece of serious scholarship that summarised many significantly differing views of Hume. We are asked to 'improve' the article, to give more references and when we try to to this, it is discarded without any explanation.I have restored the few lines that were deleted.

Fenton Robb 00:40, 10 March 2006 (UTC)

It's hardly overlong. It was a good read. I've never liked Hume's works, but this page was a good summary (since I don't like his works it sort of means I don't know his ideas as I wouldn't have had read them). 32.97.110.142 13:53, 15 August 2006 (UTC)Piepants

I completely fail to see why what you've included is useful. Firstly, it is not referenced properly. Secondly, how are unexplained one-word and out of context quotes useful for understanding Hume? Thirdly, why should this be in the lead even if it is included? Fourthly, several of the authors mentioned simply are not notable. Lastly, it is a list and encyclopaedias should (mostly) consist of prose. I'm removing it again. If you really want it included, let's talk about it & add it to something OTHER than the lead. (add it, that is, after it has been expanded into useful prose). Mikker ^... 00:51, 10 March 2006 (UTC)

I thought it useful to reflect on the many different ways that a variety of authors had labelled Hume. But not so important as to argue about it.Fenton Robb 13:09, 10 March 2006 (UTC)

Well, it could be useful if you turned it into prose & explained what the terms used mean (philsophers often mean very specific things with the words they use - quoting something like that completely out of context simply is not useful). That said, it should most certainly not go into the lead. Mikker ^... 16:49, 10 March 2006 (UTC)

I agree to this being put in a more appropriate place and resign that decision to others better aquaint with the rules of philosophy pages. I readily defer to your judgement on that. But, please note; there is an injunction that this page is already too long and the addition of lenghty discourses, about what each critic meant by the term used, would, in my opinion at least, take up far too much space and thus detract from the page by inducing boredom in the casual reader. That is why I adopted the single word approach and left it to the more serious readers to follow up links that would lead them to sources which would accumulate over time. This is very far from being a 'list'; it is a source that could be of value to serious students looking for different views of Hume expressed at different times in recent philosophical history. I had thought that wiki was rather more than a conventional encyclopedia in that hints on each page could lead readers, if interested, to other pages in which more text might amplify the hints with further discourse. That was my understanding of how wiki works and why, thinking that the richness and flexibility of wiki could be used in this way, I was content to employ such a curtailed format for this rather large number of references. I agree entirely with you that such an approach would be quite inappropriate in an ordinary encyclopedia; but wiki need not be so ordinary. Fenton Robb 20:01, 10 March 2006 (UTC)

Mikkerpikker - I understand that you are offline for a bit. Sorry we could not conclude discussion about the Hume references. I have recovered what you deleted and am putting what you call the 'list' under Further Reading, which was I think, you preference. I have not added any text, for the reasons given in the talk page. Hope to hear from you soon. Fenton Robb 11:01, 11 March 2006 (UTC)

I have also wikified the references and made some small additions elsewhere. Fenton Robb 18:23, 11 March 2006 (UTC)

Hi Fenton Robb, thanks for moving the section down, I think it works much better in "further reading" than it did in the lead. That said, I still think explaining what the philosophers you mention meant by calling Hume what they did is a good idea. And, no, I don't think the article is too long yet... Hume is such a big topic there is plenty left to explain. Besides, as the article grows we could always create subsidiary articles (Hume's life, etc.) Mikker ^... 13:01, 13 March 2006 (UTC)

Thanks Mikkerpikker for the encouragement. Glad you're back to keep an eye on me. I'll try to write up stuff off line along the lines you suggest but it will be difficult to keep it brief. Pretty busy, but will try to action soon.Fenton Robb 20:49, 13 March 2006 (UTC)

Following Mikkerpikker's suggestions, I have added a small section 'Perspectives of Hume' and appropriate references. Hope this is OK now?Fenton Robb 21:32, 17 March 2006 (UTC)

[edit] instrumentalism?

This article mentions:

instrumentalism, which states that an action is reasonable if and only if it serves the agent's goals and desires

But when you click on instrumentalism, you find that the article is about something else. DAB! Michael Hardy 03:09, 3 March 2006 (UTC)

Changed the link to point to instrumental rationality. Thanks for pointing it out! -Seth Mahoney 03:20, 3 March 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Problem of Induction

The Problem of Induction might be the issue Hume is best known for. So I added a short intro paragraph to that section which lays the foundation for it according to Hume. I also added a couple direct quotes from my copy of EHU. [*] I removed the example of the "laws of planetary orbits" continuing in the future because a "law" implies that which must necessarily continue. However, such necessity is precisely what Hume contests our being able to know. So, to hopefully better clarify his point I added the example of the probability of future rain based on past rain patterns, which is a simple and commonplace example of induction.

Also, I added a closing paragraph that makes a point many people overlook, which is that Hume was not arguing against induction. While he raised the problem with respect to explaining the jump from premise to conclusion in inductive reasoning, he felt that in its proper place (empirical thought) it was superior to deductive reasoning. I provide a quote to that effect from [*].

[*] Hume, David. An Enquiry Concerning Human Understanding. Ed. Tom L. Beauchamp, Oxford: Oxford UP, 1999.

Ian Goddard 01:18, 5 April 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Racism

The quote "The blatant racism of Hume's statement is striking. It should be noted that sort of racist thinking was a widespead feature of European culture in Hume's time" seems self-contradictory. It should not strike anyone as surprising that Hume was racist given the widespread racist sentiments of his time, and the second sentence seems to imply this. Let's not inject an article with our own sentiments lest it interfere with the objective content and factual quality. 71.76.136.149 00:25, 8 June 2006 (UTC)

Can we not do something regarding this section? Such as put a disclaimer on the section regarding Human Species? I question the motives of he/she who put this section in there for it does not further develop any of Hume's philosophy and rather seems like an ad hominem attack on Hume, with the intention of discrediting the rest of his philosophy.

I move that the section be removed from this entry or that an expalanation of the reason behind its inclusion be put in there.

I agree. It is a single footnote with no context given or explanation for its inclusion. The context is especially important, as when reading Hume I often found that many of his remarks were written as either obviously sardonic or sardonic by dint of context with the comments surrounding them and the society of the time. That may or may not be the case with this quote, but without context or additional explanation I don't see the point of the quote.

[edit] backgammon player?

I noticed the tag "scottish backgammon players." Removed it, considering I don't see verification and bc he's the only one on the list.

He actually did play Backgammon, according to his Treatise of Human Nature [1] --Thf1977 12:05, 14 August 2006 (UTC)

I have restored backgammon, but not the tag, of course, -I think its important in illustrating how Hume balanced his mental experiments with his everyday life. Fenton Robb

[edit] Marriage

Wasn't he married? I thought he had one kid.

He wasn't married. In his last years, his sister kept house for him and he left the greater part of his estate to his brother John and nephew David (which may explain the confusion). --Thf1977 09:24, 16 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Huh?

"This forms an important aspect of Hume's skepticism, for he says that we cannot be certain a thing, such as God, a soul, or a self, exists unless we can point out the impression from which the idea of the thing is derived."

Is "be" supposed to be "belived" here? If so, will someone change it? -- Calion | Talk 16:31, 27 August 2006 (UTC) Yes, indeed, thank you - corrected.Fenton Robb 01:38, 8 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Hume's "conversion"

I have taken the liberty of substituting a similar tale which can be referenced and deleted that which seemed ill-founded. Fenton Robb 01:50, 8 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] GA Re-Review and In-line citations

Members of the Wikipedia:WikiProject Good articles are in the process of doing a re-review of current Good Article listings to ensure compliance with the standards of the Good Article Criteria. (Discussion of the changes and re-review can be found here). A significant change to the GA criteria is the mandatory use of some sort of in-line citation (In accordance to WP:CITE) to be used in order for an article to pass the verification and reference criteria. Currently this article does not include in-line citations. It is recommended that the article's editors take a look at the inclusion of in-line citations as well as how the article stacks up against the rest of the Good Article criteria. GA reviewers will give you at least a week's time from the date of this notice to work on the in-line citations before doing a full re-review and deciding if the article still merits being considered a Good Article or would need to be de-listed. If you have any questions, please don't hesitate to contact us on the Good Article project talk page or you may contact me personally. On behalf of the Good Articles Project, I want to thank you for all the time and effort that you have put into working on this article and improving the overall quality of the Wikipedia project. Agne 01:47, 26 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Response on in-line references

Although such a novice that I have not yet discovered how to make a reference, I plead with the Members not to dismiss this article too quickly - 'at least a week's notice' to the editors seems to place rather too much pressure on whoever they are. There is much work to be done on this and I plead for leniency. I don't even know how to make a comment on the Good Article Talk page! Fenton Robb 22:01, 4 October 2006 (UTC)

I am ploughing through many sentences that need referencing, but I have also added several on-line sources of Hume's works and expanded some titles. Please hold fast in assesing this article! Fenton Robb 23:18, 8 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Dislike of fish

I cannot find any support for this anecdote and have removed it in the interest of simplicity. In case anyone feels like restoring it - here it is - it belongs just after the fishwives tale.

"Hume had a great disliking of fish. It is said that he was put in an awkward situation when dining with Lady Porlaine and fish was served up. Hume is said to have politely excused himself and ran all the nearby forest where he slept for the night before returning to his home to dine alone".

Fenton Robb 17:00, 11 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Cultural depictions of David Hume

I've started an approach that may apply to Wikipedia's Core Biography articles: creating a branching list page based on in popular culture information. I started that last year while I raised Joan of Arc to featured article when I created Cultural depictions of Joan of Arc, which has become a featured list. Recently I also created Cultural depictions of Alexander the Great out of material that had been deleted from the biography article. Since cultural references sometimes get deleted without discussion, I'd like to suggest this approach as a model for the editors here. Regards, Durova 17:36, 18 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] David Hume was a racist

‘I am apt to suspect the Negroes to be naturally inferior to the Whites. There scarcely ever was a civilised nation of that complexion, nor even any individual, eminent either in action or in speculation. No ingenious manufacture among them, no arts, no sciences”.- David Hume

and please dont excuse this and say he was a man of his time, if he was so intellegent then how could he have this stupid mindset? --Halaqah 22:49, 20 October 2006 (UTC)

Because.... he was a man of his time. That's not an excuse, it is a fact. Find me ANY figure from that time period who didn't hold atleast *some* racist views and I'll be amazed. Even highly intelligent people can fall victim to social prejudices, and yes... even a great skeptic like Hume.

Please please please, "some" racist view? Read what he said. The man in the bar cursing Africa is uninformed, this man spoke from reflection and conviction. It was his observation. That doesnt excuse any form of racism "man of his Time". Why can i look into the history of other people and find this "opinion" funny i find a more informed view. When the Greeks wrote on Kemet they were more "of our time" in their thinking. --Halaqah 08:34, 21 October 2006 (UTC)

I agree that Hume was 'racist' as we call people now who generalise about people with certain physical appearance. But I ask for evidence that Hume should have known that there were people of that complexion eminent either in action or in speculation, ingenious manufacture, or in the arts and sciences” in 18c. In short, was Hume substantially wrong? It is more than likely that Hume's experience encompassed no signficant contact with any of that complexion, other than slaves in Bristol, but before condemning him in modern terms, should we not demonstrate his error? Note too that he was careful to say that he was 'apt to suspect', not that he was certain.

You misunderstand me. I wasn't saying that Hume's racism should be excused or overlooked, my point was that it shouldn't really be a suprise. I expect, when looking into the views of 18th century figures, to find opinions which today we would consider "backwards." Also, it isn't something we should condemn him too heavily for. But yes, it was a flaw in his character, and that should be noted.

[edit] Quote section

I removed the quote section because it only featured one quote, one that was already given earlier in the article.

The following was deleted by anonymous user 68.212.56.10:Quotes by Hume:

Okay well I will get more quotes and put it back, or you could get some quotes and add to it---Halaqah 08:31, 21 October 2006 (UTC)

Quotes don't go on Wikipedia, they belong at Wikiquote so please don't add it back. Mikker ^(...) 18:09, 13 November 2006 (UTC)

It's not that Hume's racism should be excused or emphasized. It's just an interesting fact about the power of these sorts of social memes that even, as another poster here has said, a great skeptic like David Hume is vulnerable to corruption by them. Rather than condemn the man, perhaps the appropriate measure is to investigate one's own rational practices all the more deeply. If Hume was susceptible, then so are you. That said, a mention of his views on race seems quite reasonable. Loganbartling 12:02, 16 November 2006 (UTC)

I have no problem with them being mentioned, so long as we have a reliable source, and doing so doesn't violate our policy on original research. Additionally, it shouldn't be a bunch of quotes and shouldn't have its own section. Mikker ^(...) 17:52, 16 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Works and External Links Section

I'm apt to remove the first four lines from the Works section that point to "copies of most of Hume's works" as these seems redundant: the External Links Section, and later portions of the Works part all contain hyperlinks to Hume's works online. I'll leave it for the time being should anyone have a better solution. I should mention that the Online Library of Liberty, Economics Department and Great Books do not seem to have a reference anywhere else. In any event, they do not seem appropriate in that section. Sayvandelay 12:10, 3 November 2006 (UTC)

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